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Favorite piece by Wagner?

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by imageWIS, May 22, 2006.

  1. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    greater chicago
    Do you remember the Mohammed cartoons incident? that religious insult was allowed on the basis of "freedom of speech". Actually, there is no such thing as freedom of speech in certain countries. But they say there is. That's contradictory. The political ban on Wagner, the German ban on Hitler's book, etc.

    G, read the whole thread, and if you still feel that way, I would be happy to discuss this. Frankly, you are coming off as an 8th grader trying to prove a point that he doesn't quite understand.

    not every country is obligated to have total freedom of speech - germany and austria have certain limitations: this is specific to nazi literature. Denmark has pretty much total freedom of speech. pretty much all of the arab countries, and much of africa and a lot of asia have extremly limited freedom of communication. different countries approach the issue differently.

    this issue of wagner has nothing what so ever to do with freedom of speech - like I said, read the thread and I would be happy to discuss this with you.

    the idea that certain orchastras, a festival and an opera house in Israel have decided not to play music by a composer who lived his life as a strong and outspoken advocate of a philosophy and political theory that resulted in tens of millions of people dead, and whose music still causes extremly harsh and terrible memories to a large part of the population of ISrael is in no way a restriction on freedom of speech.

    frankly, I find your tone offensive. I think that you would be better served, if you wish to ever become a gentleman, of being less outspoken about things that you understand nothing about.
     
  2. imageWIS

    imageWIS Senior member

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    G, read the whole thread, and if you still feel that way, I would be happy to discuss this. Frankly, you are coming off as an 8th grader trying to prove a point that he doesn't quite understand.

    not every country is obligated to have total freedom of speech - germany and austria have certain limitations: this is specific to nazi literature. Denmark has pretty much total freedom of speech. pretty much all of the arab countries, and much of africa and a lot of asia have extremly limited freedom of communication. different countries approach the issue differently.

    this issue of wagner has nothing what so ever to do with freedom of speech - like I said, read the thread and I would be happy to discuss this with you.

    the idea that certain orchastras, a festival and an opera house in Israel have decided not to play music by a composer who lived his life as a strong and outspoken advocate of a philosophy and political theory that resulted in tens of millions of people dead, and whose music still causes extremly harsh and terrible memories to a large part of the population of ISrael is in no way a restriction on freedom of speech.

    frankly, I find your tone offensive. I think that you would be better served, if you wish to ever become a gentleman, of being less outspoken about things that you understand nothing about.


    I have to agree, plus you will find that the forum (and by the forum I mean not only it's members but its moderators / owner as well) is less than tolerant when it comes to people who start posting borderline discriminatory arguments, especially when those arguments upset longstanding forum members.

    There is a very good reason why Mein Kampf is banned in Germany: because it is the collective thoughts of a man, which caused the largest amount of deaths in history and it contains nothing but hate. And surely if one thing should be banned, it should be hate. There is a big difference with disagreement and outright hate. Disagreement is good, it causes others to learn to adapt and be able to live with others and too be able to see both sides of an argument, in essences to show tolerance and respect. Hate on the other hand is the complete opposite and is obviously a quality we don't wish to instill in our fellow man or ourselves.

    Jon.
     
  3. Hanseat

    Hanseat Senior member

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    Actually it's a misconception that it's illegal to sell or own Mein Kampf in Germany.
    It's perfectly legal to own it and it's legal to sell antique copies of it.
    What's illegal in Germany is to re-print it as the copyright as fallen to the state of Bavaria, which has chosen not to allow it to be re-printed.
     
  4. imageWIS

    imageWIS Senior member

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    Actually it's a misconception that it's illegal to sell or own Mein Kampf in Germany.
    It's perfectly legal to own it and it's legal to sell antique copies of it.
    What's illegal in Germany is to re-print it as the copyright as fallen to the state of Bavaria, which has chosen not to allow it to be re-printed.


    That's a REALLY smart move.

    Jon.
     
  5. clarinetplayer

    clarinetplayer Senior member

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    Michigan
    My favorite Wagner: Elsa's Procession to the Cathedral--Lohengrin

    As to Wagner the man, I can do no better than to quote that most ardent foe of Nazism, Arturo Toscanini, who said, "Wagner was right; Verdi was right; they were both right." And, about Richard Strauss, who remained in Nazi Germany, Toscanini remarked, "To Strauss, the musician, I take off my hat. To Strauss, the man, I keep it on."

    In other words, we have to divorce the beauty of the art from the faults of the creator.
     
  6. thom_h

    thom_h Member

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    ever since i first saw the 'copter scene in apocalypse now, i've been in love with flight of the valkayrie.
     
  7. mistahlee

    mistahlee Senior member

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    Florida, U.S.A.
    The hall overlooking the Vltava River in Prague has a roof that is ringed by busts of famous composers. During the war, Adolf Hitler ordered Felix Mendelssohn's bust removed because he was of Jewish origin. His troops climbed to the roof, but couldn't figure out which one was Mendelssohn, so they removed the bust with the largest nose. It turned out to be that of Richard Wagner, Hitler's favorite composer.

    Good anecdote. Thanks.

    There is a recording of the Siegfried Idyll conducted by the pianist Glenn Gould, Sony Classical SK 46279. I recommend it highly to you Wagnerians. The orchestration is the original, for thirteen instruments. The tempo is wrenchingly slow and the conductor teases out detail in this most satisfying performance; absorbing and passionate. I think this is Gould's only conductorial recording. Toscannini's I love, but this one is really special.
     
  8. bengal-stripe

    bengal-stripe Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    What's illegal in Germany is to re-print it as the copyright as fallen to the state of Bavaria, which has chosen not to allow it to be re-printed.
    That's a REALLY smart move.
    It might have been a smart move after the war, but it's likely to cause enormous problems in nine years time, when the book will be out of copyright.
    (Copyright in Europe is seventy years after the author's death.)

    It's easier the way it was done for a number of Nazi propaganda films: "˜Jud Süss', "˜Heimkehr' etc.
    They were never given any classification certificate and can therefore not be performed in public.
    http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...351240,00.html
     
  9. LabelKing

    LabelKing Senior member

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    Location:
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    I have to agree, plus you will find that the forum (and by the forum I mean not only it's members but its moderators / owner as well) is less than tolerant when it comes to people who start posting borderline discriminatory arguments, especially when those arguments upset longstanding forum members.

    There is a very good reason why Mein Kampf is banned in Germany: because it is the collective thoughts of a man, which caused the largest amount of deaths in history and it contains nothing but hate. And surely if one thing should be banned, it should be hate. There is a big difference with disagreement and outright hate. Disagreement is good, it causes others to learn to adapt and be able to live with others and too be able to see both sides of an argument, in essences to show tolerance and respect. Hate on the other hand is the complete opposite and is obviously a quality we don't wish to instill in our fellow man or ourselves.

    Jon.

    I'm quite sure Stalin had more people-including masses of Jews-killed than Hitler.
     
  10. imageWIS

    imageWIS Senior member

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    Location:
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    It might have been a smart move after the war, but it's likely to cause enormous problems in nine years time, when the book will be out of copyright.
    (Copyright in Europe is seventy years after the author's death.)

    It's easier the way it was done for a number of Nazi propaganda films: "˜Jud Süss', "˜Heimkehr' etc.
    They were never given any classification certificate and can therefore not be performed in public.
    http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...351240,00.html


    Yeah, ok...[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Jon.
     
  11. A Y

    A Y Senior member

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    Southern California
    Maria Callas singing Liebestod
    At the risk of reigniting the political stuff in this thread, I just came across this free webcast in decent sound quality of Esa-Pekka Salonen conducting a very fine and deeply felt Liebestod with Sarah Bullock and the Philharmonia: http://www.philharmonia.co.uk/thesou...harmonia_live/ I got the MP3s when they came out, but I didn't know about this webcast. I'm revisiting this music again because the LA Phil and Salonen just started their Tristan & Isolde concerts this week in pretty interesting pairings: each act with a Debussy piece on separate nights, and two nights of all 3 acts of the T&I. I'll be attending the 2nd 3-acter in a couple of weeks. The very end will be worth the 4 hours of wading through Wagner. The video art by Bill Viola that accompanies the LA Phil performances is astounding: shot at hundreds of frames a second with very high definition video projected on very tall and narrow screens, they're depictions of the elemental feelings in the music. Imagine a 30-foot version of this (click on it for the video): [​IMG] The darnedest thing about the full video sequence is that the water falls downwards first with everything dry when the Liebestod starts, before going up at the end that you see in the excerpt. I'm still trying to figure out how he did that. More videos at this NPR article: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...506273&sc=emaf --Andre
     

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