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Fake (and Ugly!!!) Borrelli ties on eBay

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by EL72, Sep 15, 2006.

  1. EL72

    EL72 Senior member

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  2. bachbeet

    bachbeet Senior member

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    That 2nd one's not so bad.

    BTW, I did see some really ugly (and way too expensive) kiton slacks on ebay. They were some really loud colrs (orange, red, navy-orange-and other colors plaid/stripe ugly pattern). And, surprise, surprise, no bids.
     
  3. The False Prophet

    The False Prophet Senior member

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    I'm guessing the deal is that there's some other maker out there who's name also happens to be Borrelli. There are seemingly billions of obscure little Italian brands.

    They don't appear to be branded Luigi Borrelli, nor does the seller hold them out as such.

    So call them ugly, yes (God yes!), but not fake as such.
     
  4. A Harris

    A Harris Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Yep, if I remember right, a couple of years ago I bought some Borrelli boxer shorts (new, unworn mind you) on ebay and they came with this label. They weren't fake, just not Luigi Borrelli.
     
  5. Mark Seitelman

    Mark Seitelman Senior member

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    This is a bit misleading in that someone might jump at it thinking that it's a "Luigi Borrelli." However, there is no claim that it was made in Naples by that famous shirtmaking firm, that it costs $175 at full retail, etc.

    Fortunately, this is not an out and out counterfeit. I once bought an Hermes tie on eBay, and it was counterfeit even though the seller tried to immitate logos and other signature items. The couterfeiter even went as far as making-up a bogus, orange Hermes box![​IMG]
     
  6. Edward Appleby

    Edward Appleby Senior member

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    This is a bit misleading in that someone might jump at it thinking that it's a "Luigi Borrelli." However, there is no claim that it was made in Naples by that famous shirtmaking firm, that it costs $175 at full retail, etc.

    Fortunately, this is not an out and out counterfeit. I once bought an Hermes tie on eBay, and it was counterfeit even though the seller tried to immitate logos and other signature items. The couterfeiter even went as far as making-up a bogus, orange Hermes box![​IMG]

    You do have to appreciate the effort involved there.
     
  7. EL72

    EL72 Senior member

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    I realize the seller is not claiming they are Luigi Borrelli ties but even if not counterfeit, this is infringing on Luigi's trademark. You can't just start making ties and label them Kiton, Zegna, or Carlo Franco for that matter. This is clearly causing confusion in the eyes of the consumer and is thus an illegal trademark infringement.
     
  8. Edward Appleby

    Edward Appleby Senior member

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    I realize the seller is not claiming they are Luigi Borrelli ties but even if not counterfeit, this is infringing on Luigi's trademark.
    Not necessarily. The logo is very, very different, and I believe the Borelli trademark is "Luigi Borrelli", not just "Borrelli."
     
  9. EL72

    EL72 Senior member

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    Not necessarily. The logo is very, very different, and I believe the Borelli trademark is "Luigi Borrelli", not just "Borrelli."

    I'm not an IP lawyer (though my wife is) but my understanding is that if the name or logo causes confusion in the eyes of an average consumer, then it is infringing on the trademark, irrespective of the exact spelling or specific design.
     
  10. macuser3of5

    macuser3of5 Senior member

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    Hey, it worked for Paolo Gucci...
     
  11. jml90

    jml90 Senior member

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    I'm not an IP lawyer (though my wife is) but my understanding is that if the name or logo causes confusion in the eyes of an average consumer, then it is infringing on the trademark, irrespective of the exact spelling or specific design.
    Not saying you're wrong but, if someone witht he last name of Smith open's a company called Smith's; I don't see how you can stop another from doing the same.
     
  12. summej2

    summej2 Senior member

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    I'm guessing the deal is that there's some other maker out there who's name also happens to be Borrelli. There are seemingly billions of obscure little Italian brands.

    They don't appear to be branded Luigi Borrelli, nor does the seller hold them out as such.

    So call them ugly, yes (God yes!), but not fake as such.


    Yep, I've seen rubber-soled, cheap looking Borrelli shoes too.
     
  13. EL72

    EL72 Senior member

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    Not saying you're wrong but, if someone witht he last name of Smith open's a company called Smith's; I don't see how you can stop another from doing the same.

    Yes, you can. If your Smith's has become world famous for selling handmade ties. Joe Smith cannot, even if his name is also Smith, call another handmade tie company Smith's because that would cause confusion for consumers who could mistake his Smith's for yours. That would be up to a judge to decide of course but the law is very clear AFAIK. If Joe decides to call his dog food company Smith's then there is little risk of consumers mistaking his business for yours, which sells handmade ties, and he would be allowed to call it that.
     
  14. jml90

    jml90 Senior member

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    Yes, you can. If your Smith's has become world famous for selling handmade ties. Joe Smith cannot, even if his name is also Smith, call another handmade tie company Smith's because that would cause confusion for consumers who could mistake his Smith's for yours. That would be up to a judge to decide of course but the law is very clear AFAIK. If Joe decides to call his dog food company Smith's then there is little risk of consumers mistaking his business for yours, which sells handmade ties, and he would be allowed to call it that.
    Interesting
     
  15. bryce330

    bryce330 Senior member

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    I'm not an IP lawyer (though my wife is) but my understanding is that if the name or logo causes confusion in the eyes of an average consumer, then it is infringing on the trademark, irrespective of the exact spelling or specific design.
    I am also an IP lawyer, and while the test is indeed whether consumers are likely to be confused, there are a number of factors to be considered, including the sophistication of the relevant consumers. In this case, the makers of "fake" Borrelli would have a reasonable argument that consumers who are in the market for $400 Borrelli shirts (i.e. the members of this forum) are sophisticated enough to immediately realize that the "fake" Borrelli ties are not produced by Luigi Borrelli, particularly given the differences between the logos. This thread piqued my interest so I did a quick search on the PTO website - Luigi Borrelli's only trademark registration is for the mark LUIGI BORRELLI NAPOLI (although they would have common law rights in the mark BORRELLI). However, a company called Design-Italia LLC filed an application for BORRELLI HAND-STITCHED, which was refused registration based on the earlier LUIGI BORRELLI NAPOLI mark. This might be the same company that is responsible for the ties on eBay.
     
  16. EL72

    EL72 Senior member

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    I am also an IP lawyer, and while the test is indeed whether consumers are likely to be confused, there are a number of factors to be considered, including the sophistication of the relevant consumers. In this case, the makers of "fake" Borrelli would have a reasonable argument that consumers who are in the market for $400 Borrelli shirts (i.e. the members of this forum) are sophisticated enough to immediately realize that the "fake" Borrelli ties are not produced by Luigi Borrelli, particularly given the differences between the logos.

    This thread piqued my interest so I did a quick search on the PTO website - Luigi Borrelli's only trademark registration is for the mark LUIGI BORRELLI NAPOLI (although they would have common law rights in the mark BORRELLI). However, a company called Design-Italia LLC filed an application for BORRELLI HAND-STITCHED, which was refused registration based on the earlier LUIGI BORRELLI NAPOLI mark. This might be the same company that is responsible for the ties on eBay.


    Interesting. Thanks for searching. So, presumably, their trademark application was refused on the basis that labeling ties (or other menswear) "Borrelli hand-stitched" may confuse consumers given that Luigi Borrelli is a well-known maker of hand-stitched mens' apparel. I am assuming that those ties are therefore infringing given the application was not granted.

    In addition, I think the assumption that the relevant consumers are as sophisticated and discerning as the posters on this forum is a dangerous one in this case. While most of us here can immediately see these are not Luigi Borrelli ties, we are but a very small fraction of the overall market for these types of goods (though polo.com may disagree as they process returns in the next few days [​IMG]) and many buyers of $200 ties have more money than taste and are just as likely to think: "Borrelli, hmmmm.... wasn't that the name the guy at Neiman Marcus mentioned last time? Nice tie. It even says hand-stitched so it must be good stuff... Hey honey, look at that nice Borrelli tie I got for a great price. It's hand stitched, look!" [​IMG]
     
  17. jml90

    jml90 Senior member

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    However, a company called Design-Italia LLC filed an application for BORRELLI HAND-STITCHED, which was refused registration based on the earlier LUIGI BORRELLI NAPOLI mark. This might be the same company that is responsible for the ties on eBay.
    I'm sure it is. You know what they say about too many coincidinces?
     

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