Exam cheaters...

[Liberty Ship]

I must say this is a fascinating thread.

I'm starting to understand how it can be that every minivan and SUV clogging up the roads in the Martix can have a "My Child is an Honor Student" bumper sticker while, at the same time, none of these young scholars can count change at their fast food jobs.

 

[redcaimen]

Originally Posted by Violinist

Then cry me a river.

<==== I love this guy.

This is me at a recent Julliard graduation.

 

[Flyer]

Someone was cheating on a test in an ethics class...was it wrong for me to find that ironically funny?

The best are the people to copy word for word....don't even bother to change the format of it at all.

 

[Quirk]

Originally Posted by Violinist

But here at my university, especially when I'm taking some bullshit sociology course or whatever, if someone is looking off my test, I really couldn't care less. In fact, since I have perfect pitch, when I sit down for the ear training exams, at least 3 people who know me will sit within view of my page. I don't turn them in because A) I am no better B) I know that they're highly capable people who could use a break every now and then, just like how I could. Some of them are in fact super talented and by virtue of them practicing all the time, don't have the time to get good at notating Webern. So, for me, it logically follows that the world is a better place with a talented cellist or whatever, than some guy who has to redo a year or whatever of education, stalling his career, because someone turned him in for cheating on a stupid little exam.


C'mon, if a guy performs a brilliant audition, is he really going to be disqualified because he got an honest C in music theory?

 

[Violinist]

Originally Posted by Quirk

C'mon, if a guy performs a brilliant audition, is he really going to be disqualified because he got an honest C in music theory?

No, but when you consider all the classes you have to take at conservatories these days, they become a major nuisance if you need to practice 5-8 hours, plus about 2 hours of chamber, and usually 3 hours of orchestra. Do the math.

My roomate read this (he comes on here to buy clothes), and just told me to drop it. What he says is true though... the only people who ever cared about cheating were big nerds who had little more to offer than their grades, and are therefore incredibly threatened when someone else can get the same grades by cheating. At the end of the day, someone who cheats on their bar exam or whatever will definately be exposed as a sub par lawyer, and you cannot cheat in the practical medical exams.

I guess this is hard to explain to people for whom books are kind of the only thing they've ever studied, but if you're into an instrument or a sport, something that takes a different type of skillset than locking yourself in a room and reading, then you start to get very annoyed by having to study something which hardly relates to what you're doing. I love to study philosophy, literature, history etc... because it furthers my understanding of this "human experience". Music theory, which is for a tennis player like, taking a physics course or learning why the color of the ball is green, is at a certain point, completely useless and if someone cheated to not have to devote time to it, then they're all the better. I remember in 1st year counterpoint, I spent 7 hours every Sunday on doing my assignment. What a total waste of time. I did that for a few years.

 

[drizzt3117]

It seems that schools are cracking down more on plagarism now than they have been in the past, but perhaps cheating is more rampant on multiple choice and other examinations? I know more test forms etc are being employed to help preclude this. The advent of www.turnitin.com etc has made plagarism difficult on papers. Prior to this, I imagine an enormous amount of plagarism was taking place on written assignments, while it is quite a bit more difficult to do now.

 

[Violinist]

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

It seems that schools are cracking down more on plagarism now than they have been in the past, but perhaps cheating is more rampant on multiple choice and other examinations? I know more test forms etc are being employed to help preclude this. The advent of www.turnitin.com etc has made plagarism difficult on papers. Prior to this, I imagine an enormous amount of plagarism was taking place on written assignments, while it is quite a bit more difficult to do now.

Funny that you mention it. When this site came out, it was actually people here at McGill University who blew the whistle. This campus "activitist" who I won't name refused to turn his paper in because it gets compiled in some big database. I remember him having some ethical leg to stand on but I also remember thinking he's just trying to cause trouble. It caused this big hoopla and something happened, which I also don't remember because I never cared.

In any case, I think it would be pretty easy to plagarize in a large class where different papers are often marked by different TAs, some by the prof. Turnitin.com propably works wonders in sorting that out.

 

[DNW]

Originally Posted by Violinist

Funny that you mention it. When this site came out, it was actually people here at McGill University who blew the whistle. This campus "activitist" who I won't name refused to turn his paper in because it gets compiled in some big database. I remember him having some ethical leg to stand on but I also remember thinking he's just trying to cause trouble. It caused this big hoopla and something happened, which I also don't remember because I never cared. In any case, I think it would be pretty easy to plagarize in a large class where different papers are often marked by different TAs, some by the prof. Turnitin.com propably works wonders in sorting that out.
We used turnitin for one semester at law school. I haven't seen it since. It ***** up the format of your paper, which is pretty important when you're writing legal briefs. Back in undergrad, my school developed a proprietary heuristics software that compared exams among each other, as well as those within its historical database. I'm not sure how well it worked, but the deterrent factor was pretty high. Nobody I knew even dared to look at another person's assignment for fear that some ideas will cross over and cause their papers to look alike.

 

[mano]

Originally Posted by MrRogers

I'm sure that those on their soapbox will degrade me for my belief's, however, i'm sure they themselves engage in such behavior, at least to some degree, regularly, without a second thought.

MrR



They're not on a soapbox, they're simply standing on solid ground.

You, however, have dug yourself into such a hole that is appears to you that they're standing above you.

 

[dkzzzz]

Originally Posted by Bandwagonesque

Generally speaking, Canadian schools, or at least the ones I've attended are hardly of the calibre of your US schools. Maybe people here just don't give a rats ass?

Or maybe because it's just an arts degree?
Oh pfff art degree? You should have said it a long time ago...

))
Cheating is an art form in many countries, so it is perfectly appropriate for an art school degree or a law scholl for that matter.

 

[Violinist]

Originally Posted by dkzzzz

Oh pfff art degree? You should have said it a long time ago...

))
Cheating is an art form in many countries, so it is perfectly appropriate for an art school degree or a law scholl for that matter.

Well... there are definately some Canadian schools which rank fairly well, like my school McGill, and others like Queens.

In fact, one of those big survey things puts McGill at 14th in North America.

I don't know if you could say there's more cheating north or south of the border though, that would be hard to say with authority.

 

[quid]

Originally Posted by MrRogers

Somewhere during this thread the distinction was lost between agreeing that cheating is ok and thinking that it is one's responsibility to report it. I absolutely do not agree with cheating, but I also don't think its my responsibility to actively police others.

I'm sure that those on their soapbox will degrade me for my belief's, however, i'm sure they themselves engage in such behavior, at least to some degree, regularly, without a second thought.

MrR

(I'm sorry, but I can't possibly take a lawyers lecture RE: cheating seriously)

i agree with this entirely.

there was however one time where i reported a person that was cheating. the classroom was stadium style probably 300 sutdents. The test was finishing up, and i look about 5 seats down in my row and 2 girls have their notebooks on the floor flipping through pages. So when i turned my exam in i just said you may want to take a walk through the rows, and i left the room. i dont know what if anything happened to those girls, and i wouldnt have said anything if it wasnt so blatant. a few postits or a note or 2 on your hand ok, at least youre being discrete, but your ******* notebook on the floor, c'mon. they were asking for it.

 

[Condor]

Where I went to school, (NC), for YEARS, I mean...at least 15 years
ago, every computer program writen by every student, in every class,
for the past 5 years was sent to some super computer at berkley.
This thing had artificial intelligence and would report as a percentage
the percentage likelyness that you copied even one line of code
from somebody. I dont mean change the variables, this thing, it checked
the INTENT or something. Then, for possible cheaters it was reported,
and reviewed by a human. If it looked like you cheated, you go to the
trial. If convicted once, you got a -100 for that program, not a zero.
It guarenteed you got a D. if convicted twice, you were permanently
expelled from the university. And you didn't get help or attention.
There were 200+ people per class, and you had to get it on your own.

In addition, LOTS of ppl, including about everyone, has spent
"a sunday" studying something with no relevance.

I've spent many an hour on psycology, managing leisure alternatives,
astronomy and the like. Freakin jokes. But you have to do it to
get the degree. To have what others have.
I've spent many many an hour, on things like thermodynamics,
materials science, and the like. "Technical" electives that I've
never seen again, never used, never needed. I did it to get the
degree. To have what others have.

It still sounds like your argument is "Its ok to cheat, if there are a lot
of ppl in the class, or, if the class isnt relevant to what i will really
be doing. Or, the work isnt relevant to my natural talent. " Or, insert
X if you want, but to basically have Y, that others have, that I dont have,
but want?

Why did I have to take FOUR PE classes, when I did two years
in the FREAKIN INFANTRY? Waste of time? Actually not.
I learned how to golf and raquetball lol. Waste of money, for somebody
paying for it 100% themselves would have liked to get the pass on it.
yes. Why? Because The Man said I have to do the work, to get the
degree. He never said anything about my natural talents being
golf or raquetball, and I can assure you, thery were not

I agree. Nobody here is on a soapbox. But, I lurked a long time on this site,
been a participating member a while. I am very sure, the really successful people here....they did the work.

And dont get me wrong - if somebody is a piano vituoso play by ear perfect person - pursue the dream. But don't blur the line between that and a defined set of criteria to get X (piece of paper diploma, etc) and what it takes to get X (hard work, sundays sacrified, vs. cheating)

After thinking about it a long time, more than 2, as many as 4-5 issues have been blurred together in this thread.

I ask you to think about that.

 

[mano]

Originally Posted by Condor

In addition, LOTS of ppl, including about everyone, has spent
"a sunday" studying something with no relevance.

I've spent many an hour on psycology, managing leisure alternatives,
astronomy and the like. Freakin jokes. But you have to do it to
get the degree. To have what others have.
I've spent many many an hour, on things like thermodynamics,
materials science, and the like. "Technical" electives that I've
never seen again, never used, never needed. I did it to get the
degree. To have what others have.

It still sounds like your argument is "Its ok to cheat, if there are a lot
of ppl in the class, or, if the class isnt relevant to what i will really
be doing. Or, the work isnt relevant to my natural talent. " Or, insert
X if you want, but to basically have Y, that others have, that I dont have,
but want?


I ask you to think about that.

Amen!

Success in life is showing up regularly, doing the work well and reaping the reward. All successful students tolerated lousy instructors, boring lectures, irrelevant assignments and unfair tests. In the end, you have the degree, along with the integrity and discipline to know you can handle the crap that life sometimes hands you.

Does the system need changing? Probably. But it's not likely to change because the schools realize, "so many people are cheating, maybe we're demanding too much of them."

Re: the people who report cheaters, they have to accept the consequences of their actions, as well. Whistle-blowers in business and government are largely ignored and then ostracized when taken seriously. They often lose their jobs and have difficulty finding another. Many look back and regret their decision, indicating they wouldn't do it again if they knew how it would turn out. Students who report cheaters are considered tattle-tales as the responses on this thread bear out.

 

[Dakota rube]

Originally Posted by mano

Re: the people who report cheaters, they have to accept the consequences of their actions, as well. Whistle-blowers in business and government are largely ignored and then ostracized when taken seriously. They often lose their jobs and have difficulty finding another. Many look back and regret their decision, indicating they wouldn't do it again if they knew how it would turn out. Students who report cheaters are considered tattle-tales as the responses on this thread bear out.
And this makes me weep for society.