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Exam cheaters...

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Bandwagonesque, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. whnay.

    whnay. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I guess it depends on your value system. To me cheating is one of the most offensive things you can do in life, whether on your wife, on the job or in the classroom. My response to this is to say that those that wish to cheat should think long and hard about the consequences before doing so. If they do and are caught in the act then they should be prepared to deal with the aftermath.
     
  2. Liberty Ship

    Liberty Ship Senior member

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    No one ever said that turning in a cheater was a pleasure, or fun, or even vengful. It was always presented to me as a matter of duty; and duty is a little more sublime that "the path of least resistance," or what makes everyone feel good. In most Honor Systems, the first duty is for the offending individual to turn himself in. Then, if another student "catches" the offender, that student asks the offender to turn himself in. Only as a last resort is the offender "turned in." And, by the way, the only way an Honor system can be effective is if it is "single sanction." Immediate expulsion. I've seen Honor trials resulting in the offender having to pack and leave campus by sundown.

    The essence of it is that one must not only value Honor more highly than his relationships with others, but at the very core, one is expected to place Honor above even his own self interests. In such a community, your relationship with others has a value that is absent in a community where honor is devalued. And in a community in which people are operating at that level, great things can happen. In a community where that doesn't happen, it is a Hobbsian "war of each against all." The relationships you try to protect by not turning in a dishonorable person, the relationships you are trying to protect in a community of "dishonor," are probably not what they appear to be to begin with.

    So, as usual, the most difficult and often painful path offers the greatest rewards.
     
  3. mkk

    mkk Senior member

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    Some people are just hypercompetitive and will do anything to be "ahead" of everyone else. Probably good to keep your distance. One TA in college told us, "If life sucks, lower your standards."
     
  4. mkk

    mkk Senior member

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    The University of Virginia's honor code is often cited as an example of an especially strict honor code which few dare cross. What you said about ruining someone's life by turning him/her in, I don't quite agree with. I'm not advocating playing God/police or whatever if you don't want to, but it's just the way that you look at it that I can't agree with. What I mean is that the person doing the turning in is not the one ruining a life. You're not the guilty party. It's the perpetrator who's ruining his own life. Chances are that if he thinks he can get away with anything and get wherever he wants to get without concern for others, sometimes at their expense, he'll go on to do more of the same in his professional/personal life later on. Maybe everything in life is a zero-sum game for him. Maybe being forced to take some time off, which may or may not involve going home, would be a benefit and teach such a person a lot. The person need not be condemned as being some bad apple. Perhaps it was a habitual cheater who was finally caught, or perhaps it was someone who followed bad judgment for the first time. In any case hopefully it changes things for the person. You're probably right that much of the significance to others(such as potential employers) is that you've gone through the motions, and I sort of treated it as such. I took the classes I wanted and just did whatever I could in each class without stressing myself too much. I wasn't terribly concerned about grades. I know some who would triple-major, some who had parents who had to "approve" their course selection each term and so on, and if they wanted to stress themselves about grades, fine. I just didn't care to do the same. "Going away" to college is a good thing for some, a bad thing for others. Some abuse the relative freedom while others mature and really figure things out.
     
  5. Condor

    Condor Senior member

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    When i was in school I noticed it was african americans that were always or most always cheating. That's just a side note, a reply to the others that said it was always asian girls they noticed cheating.

    However, you did the right thing, bro.

    "I shall not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those that do"

    Even if your grade ended up lower because of the curve, or
    maybe you just feel the unfairness of the world, or you feel
    slighted because you did the work and they didnt. I dont know.

    But when you look at the man in the mirror, you will know you did what is
    right. That counts for something.
     
  6. Quirk

    Quirk Senior member

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    Yep, most of the cheating in college is blacks and asians. People often resist turning them in because of liberal guilt. Damned PC campuses. [​IMG]
     
  7. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

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    Somewhere during this thread the distinction was lost between agreeing that cheating is ok and thinking that it is one's responsibility to report it. I absolutely do not agree with cheating, but I also don't think its my responsibility to actively police others.

    I'm sure that those on their soapbox will degrade me for my belief's, however, i'm sure they themselves engage in such behavior, at least to some degree, regularly, without a second thought.

    MrR

    (I'm sorry, but I can't possibly take a lawyers lecture RE: cheating seriously)

    Well, that's because you evidently assume everyone is as lacking in integrity as you. Perhaps you could tell us what saintly, self-abnegating vocation you follow?
     
  8. lawyerdad

    lawyerdad Senior member

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    Nice cheap shot.

    You have low standards. I appreciate a nice cheap shot as much as the next guy, even when I'm the target. But that was a pretty lame effort.
     
  9. Condor

    Condor Senior member

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    Well, that's because you evidently assume everyone is as lacking in integrity as you. Perhaps you could tell us what saintly, self-abnegating vocation you follow

    that's wrong man, and you distorted this whole discussion.

    Even your own comment is contratictory to itself.

    I'm trying not to hit on you hard, but those 2 statements are not right.
     
  10. Quirk

    Quirk Senior member

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    Well, that's because you evidently assume everyone is as lacking in integrity as you. Perhaps you could tell us what saintly, self-abnegating vocation you follow that's wrong man, and you distorted this whole discussion. Even your own comment is contratictory to itself. I'm trying not to hit on you hard, but those 2 statements are not right.
    ? WTF ? By the way, you plagiarized lawyerdad's quote, which is just NOT COOL. I'm reporting you to J.
     
  11. Condor

    Condor Senior member

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    im not sure what i did or said for such a comment.

    I will think about it, and reply later.

    My base premise is: lying, cheating and stealing is wrong.

    It is perhaps through writing, I didn't explain myself 100% so well on my replies. Things get lost in writing replies. I agree with you.
     
  12. Quirk

    Quirk Senior member

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    I suspect students cheat largely because they perceive it as no big deal and/or because by downplaying honor codes, many institutions implicitly suggest that though cheating may 'technically' be a violation, it's really not all that big a deal if done discreetly, in small doses -- akin to lending your dining room pass to your off-campus friend if you're going home the weekend.

    When an institution has a strict honor code and makes a point of reiterating it, cheating is lessened not merely because students fear punishment, but also because if the institution makes it clear that they take it seriously, students are more likely to internalize the ethos that defines it as a serious breach of intellectual and personal ethics.

    Why institutions don't make more of a big deal about it, I don't know. Don't want to appear too demanding, punitive and 'oppressive', I guess -- alienates potential customers. [​IMG]
     
  13. LabelKing

    LabelKing Senior member

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    This reminds me of a Bush incident. When Bush was at Yale, the only class he got an A in was an anthropology class taught by none other than Margaret Mead.

    Apparently Mead hated grading so she gave everyone who participated in the class an A.
     
  14. redcaimen

    redcaimen Senior member

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    I suspect students cheat largely because they perceive it as no big deal and/or because by downplaying honor codes, many institutions implicitly suggest that though cheating may 'technically' be a violation, it's really not all that big a deal if done discreetly, in small doses -- akin to lending your dining room pass to your off-campus friend if you're going home the weekend.

    When an institution has a strict honor code and makes a point of reiterating it, cheating is lessened not merely because students fear punishment, but also because if the institution makes it clear that they take it seriously, students are more likely to internalize the ethos that defines it as a serious breach of intellectual and personal ethics.

    Why institutions don't make more of a big deal about it, I don't know. Don't want to appear too demanding, punitive and 'oppressive', I guess -- alienates potential customers. [​IMG]


    +1. Well put.
     
  15. Huntsman

    Huntsman Senior member

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    At my University, most of the cheaters I notice are lame-ass white boys.
     
  16. Violinist

    Violinist Senior member

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    Cast ye the first stone. If you're going to turn someone in for cheating on a stupid test, then you had better be mother theresa. Who cares? Academia is mostly bullshit anyways, and people have to do it so they can move on to bigger, better things. What, are you going to start reporting people for skipping class too?

    Get a life.
     
  17. Huntsman

    Huntsman Senior member

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    Read the rest of the thread, perhaps. I'm not sure if I've ever disagreed with you before. Interesting.

    Regards,
    Huntsman
     
  18. Liberty Ship

    Liberty Ship Senior member

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    I suspect students cheat largely because they perceive it as no big deal and/or because by downplaying honor codes, many institutions implicitly suggest that though cheating may 'technically' be a violation, it's really not all that big a deal if done discreetly, in small doses -- akin to lending your dining room pass to your off-campus friend if you're going home the weekend. When an institution has a strict honor code and makes a point of reiterating it, cheating is lessened not merely because students fear punishment, but also because if the institution makes it clear that they take it seriously, students are more likely to internalize the ethos that defines it as a serious breach of intellectual and personal ethics. Why institutions don't make more of a big deal about it, I don't know. Don't want to appear too demanding, punitive and 'oppressive', I guess -- alienates potential customers. [​IMG]
    Good points. My Alma Mater had/has an excellent single sanction Honor system. Back in the '50's they eliminated entirely athletic scholarships after a cheating scandal. The conclusion was that "athletic scholarships were incompatible with the Honor System." I believe that private institutions have a chance of maintaining effective, single sanction honor systems. Public institutions must find it impossible. The so-called "right to an education" conflicts with an honor system. Why is single sanction so important? Anything short of a sudden, swift "death penalty" gives the potential offender the opportunity to apply a calculus of risk vs reward. For example, if someone parties all semester and comes up clueless on finals and is facing flunking out anyway, why not cheat? If you get away with it, you're golden. If you get caught, well, an automatic F or 0, or even a lame "semester off" is the limit of risk. Being totally expunged from the institution immediately and forever is another matter. Maybe, knowing that that's the risk at the end of the term will give one a better incentive to keep up during the term. Thus, the ethos of strict honor will tend to raise the standards of the institution and everyone in it. Regarding turning in others, why should college be different from real life. Under certain circumstances, lying, cheating, and certainly stealing are crimes in "real life." And, again, under certain circumstances having knowledge, before or after the fact, of such crimes and not reporting it is, in itself, a crime, often carrying similar penalties. The reason the laws are written this way is similar to the reason Honor Codes are written this way. No laws can be effectively enforced without the support and buy-in of those being governed. When laws and honor systems fail, it is often because of the fact that a bright line has developed between the enforcement apparatus and the population. Accessory laws, like the "will not tolerate those who do" clause of effective honor codes, serve to blur that line, and charge and empower citizens of the system with the responsibility (as painful as that might be) of participating in and maintaining their own civilization rather than just handing off the hard part while reaping the benefits.
     
  19. Liberty Ship

    Liberty Ship Senior member

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    Cast ye the first stone. If you're going to turn someone in for cheating on a stupid test, then you had better be mother theresa. Who cares? Academia is mostly bullshit anyways, and people have to do it so they can move on to bigger, better things. What, are you going to start reporting people for skipping class too?

    Get a life.


    "Bigger and better things"...hmmm. In the context of your reference, Acacemia is a process of credentialing. Be it a military officer from one of our military academies, a business executive from one of our business schools, what kind of person do you want using those credentials to go on to "bigger and better things?"

    In his book "Living the Martial Way," by Forrest Morgan, Morgan spends quite a bit of time discussing the issue of honor as it applies to bushido, or the warrior ethos. He makes the point:

    "Warriors aren't honorable because they fear a wrathful god. Warriors are honorable because its a practical requirement of their profession. They are honorable because it's the most powerful way to live. Honor is essential among professional warriors. When hundreds or thousands of lives are at stake, superiors must know their subordinates are absolutely reliable. They must be able to trust those under their command to report information accurately, no matter how bad the news is....The non-warrior elements of society must also rely on the honor of warriors, for warriors can be the most dangerous people in the world...Warriors without honor quickly become tyrants, as some third world countries demonstrate...Only honor separates warriors from thugs."

    By discussing honor in the martial arts, Morgan, has by exetnsion, made a derivative argument for having a strict honor code as part of the credentialing process in our military academies.

    Now, I would add that "only honor separates business men from charlatans and grifters." I think that's valid. Why, then, shouldn't an honor system be part of the credentialing process for business schools? Or should they just be allowed to cheat their way through and move on to "bigger and better things," like Enron, or being your broker?

    I really think that the extent to which any degree (or "credential") has any value to the cheater is directly dependent on those who went through the process without cheating. Because if _everyone_ cheated, the degree would have no value whatsoever.
     
  20. whnay.

    whnay. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Cast ye the first stone. If you're going to turn someone in for cheating on a stupid test, then you had better be mother theresa. Who cares? Academia is mostly bullshit anyways, and people have to do it so they can move on to bigger, better things. What, are you going to start reporting people for skipping class too?

    Get a life.

    Ladies and gentlemen, the next generation.
     

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