Exam cheaters...

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Bandwagonesque, Dec 6, 2006.

  1. Huntsman

    Huntsman Senior member

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    A high GPA may just get you an interview. I've met tons of book smart people (or maybe they were those evil dirty cheaters, I dont know) who hadn't a clue how to write a resume or handle an interview.

    I interview well. It gives me an edge, generally. However, there are tech fields where GPA is more the determinant, because these people are going to be pushing out code and such and don't need to see clients or integrate well into the culture, so long as they do their work well and don't make a stink.

    Huntsman
     


  2. sonick

    sonick Senior member

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    Wednesday night I had a statistics exam where we were allowed a cheat sheet, typed, single Letter-sized, one-sided.

    Apparently an asian girl went in with a cheat sheet filled to the brim on both sides. The prof saw it, simply scrawled a "0" on her paper, took her exam and cheat sheet, and told her to get out.

    I feel no pity for her considering all business courses are curved.

    Somebody drinking underage at a bar does not directly influence me.

    In a class, if I was on the cusp of passing and a student did extremely well by cheating and pulling up the average, I would have been screwed already on the tuition to retake the class, not considering the other non-monetary implications of failing.
     


  3. MrRogers

    MrRogers Senior member

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    I even like to give 'most' people who are driving badly or really speeding a pass -- I don't know what is going on in their lives that day, and I remember a day I flew home for a medical emergency.
    Huntsman



    Your logic is flawed.

    Perhaps the girl in question always studied hard and had never even considered cheating before this exam. Maybe the night before her boyfriend dumped her, and her parents both went into the hospital. She asked for an extension but one was not granted. She tried desperately to concentrate during the wee morning hours before the exam but was unable to accomplish any decent studying. She promised herself to cheat only this one time and go to confession straight after the exam. By your logic, behaviors that may have a negative impact on you are permissible under certain circumstances.

    As i've said before in this thread, the poster should have put his head down and not sung to the TA like a little girl. Noone said life was fair.


    MrR
     


  4. metkirk

    metkirk Senior member

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    Your logic is flawed.

    Perhaps the girl in question always studied hard and had never even considered cheating before this exam. Maybe the night before her boyfriend dumped her, and her parents both went into the hospital. She asked for an extension but one was not granted. She tried desperately to concentrate during the wee morning hours before the exam but was unable to accomplish any decent studying. She promised herself to cheat only this one time and go to confession straight after the exam. By your logic, behaviors that may have a negative impact on you are permissible under certain circumstances.

    As i've said before in this thread, the poster should have put his head down and not sung to the TA like a little girl. Noone said life was fair.


    MrR


    Doesn't mean he couldn't report her, life's not fair so you make it fair. She accepted the risk of being reported so be it.
     


  5. Huntsman

    Huntsman Senior member

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    Your logic is flawed. Perhaps the girl in question always studied hard and had never even considered cheating before this exam. Maybe the night before her boyfriend dumped her, and her parents both went into the hospital. She asked for an extension but one was not granted. She tried desperately to concentrate during the wee morning hours before the exam but was unable to accomplish any decent studying. She promised herself to cheat only this one time and go to confession straight after the exam. By your logic, behaviors that may have a negative impact on you are permissible under certain circumstances. As i've said before in this thread, the poster should have put his head down and not sung to the TA like a little girl. Noone said life was fair. MrR
    It isn't my logic that is flawed. First, I stated that those comparisons were pretty ridiculous, but that I was trying to keep it within the schema proposed by Jodum. Anyway, if you're going to refute my logic, can you try to not border on the absurd as well? Regardless, I shall continue along that line. 1. I've had enough medical crap go on in my family that I've had to ask for a deferment or extension on an exam. Nearly did for these finals. You will get it if you really need it. But, say she didn't. 2. If she'd always studied hard and even kept up with the work she would not flunk due to the effect of one exam, and thus it is not a choice based on survival. 3.
    By your logic, behaviors that may have a negative impact on you are permissible under certain circumstances.
    [Emphasis added] No, no, no. We are not discussing behaviors that MAY have a negative impact upon me, or whether or not they are permissable under certain circumstances. We are discussing behaviors that irrefutably DO have a negative impact on me regardless of circumstance, and why they are not permissible. If you really want to maintain the comparsion to cheating in this schema, the most appropriate scenario would be if I had flown home scraping into cars along the way. In fact that analogy refutes 3) above perfectly, as it concerns not merely the potential for harm, but the harm that actually does occur. Naturally, getting banged into generally prompts an appeal to authority -- you call the cops. The OP reported a cheater. I would not consider my banging into people on the way home acceptable with respect to any mitigating circumstances, precisely as I don't consider cheating acceptable with respect to mitigating circumstances. Regards, Huntsman
     


  6. MrRogers

    MrRogers Senior member

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    It isn't my logic that is flawed.

    First, I stated that those comparisons were pretty ridiculous, but that I was trying to keep it within the schema proposed by Jodum. Anyway, if you're going to refute my logic, can you try to not border on the absurd as well? Regardless, I shall continue along that line.

    1. I've had enough medical crap go on in my family that I've had to ask for a deferment or extension on an exam. Nearly did for these finals. You will get it if you really need it. But, say she didn't.

    2. If she'd always studied hard and even kept up with the work she would not flunk due to the effect of one exam, and thus it is not a choice based on survival.

    3.
    [Emphasis added]

    No, no, no. We are not discussing behaviors that MAY have a negative impact upon me, or whether or not they are permissable under certain circumstances. We are discussing behaviors that irrefutably DO have a negative impact on me regardless of circumstance, and why they are not permissible.

    If you really want to maintain the comparsion to cheating in this schema, the most appropriate scenario would be if I had flown home scraping into cars along the way. In fact that analogy refutes 3) above perfectly, as it concerns not merely the potential for harm, but the harm that actually does occur. Naturally, getting banged into generally prompts an appeal to authority -- you call the cops. The OP reported a cheater. I would not consider my banging into people on the way home acceptable with respect to any mitigating circumstances, precisely as I don't consider cheating acceptable with respect to mitigating circumstances.

    Regards,
    Huntsman


    I'm not sure why you believe these circumstances to be so absurd and far-fetched. RE: 1 score not greatly influencing her final grade; many graduate programs offer one exam at the end of the semester worth 100% of the final grade. RE: not being granted an extension, true in most cases this would not be the case, however, I have had one instance personally where I was in a much worse situation and was told "tough luck"

    The connection between cheating undoubtedly causing "harm" and wreckless driving not doing so with any degree of certainty is a bit weak. There are simply to many factors to make this distinction; difficulty of the test, size of the class, whether cheating actually helped her etc.

    I do however understand your point and accept your opinion.

    Interestingly, I remember an anon survey conducted by my ethics and law professor in which he asked us to state whether or not we would turn in a known cheater, in a class of 31, only 1 person said that they would.

    In the end, its totally subjective. As i've said the third time, its just a punk move. The original poster just needs to mind his own business. I think I'm even more turned off by his actions because he didn't even have the balls to say to the TA. "The girl next to me is cheating. She has the papers on her." It just seems spineless to me. One day when someone blows the whistle on him, he'll understand what a few of us are saying.

    MrR
     


  7. Liberty Ship

    Liberty Ship Senior member

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    I'm kind of shocked at the tolerance for cheaters on this thread. Cheating at school begets a culture of cheating and a culture of cheating serves, ultimately, to dilute the value of the degree from that institution.

    For example, some years ago I interviewed a candidate for employment from what I thought was a pretty good private college. She was an English major. I asked her who John Milton was. No clue. Keats? Clueless. Her degree verifed. How did she graduate as an English major? I assume she cheated her way through the program. I have not thought of that institution the same way since.

    My alma mater was famous for its honor code. Students were expected not to lie, cheat, steal, or otherwise betray a trust, nor tolerate those who do. Knowing of someone's cheating and not reporting it was treated as an honor offense as surely as the offense itself. And it was a single sanction system -- the only penalty was expulsion.

    People may have cheated, but I never saw it. The point is that the requirement to report it had the effect, at least, of containing the breach and making sure that the campus did not develop a cheating ethos, which, as I indicate above, can have the effect of making first grades, then the degree less and less meaningful. The institution's reputation rots frm the inside out. You are investing a lot of time and money in your degree. Do you sanction those who degrade it out of selfishness or laziness? If you go to a doctor or call an attorney from jail, do you want someone who cheated his way through school?

    And these are simply the practical implications. There are also character issues in play. What kind of person do you want to go forth and represent your alma mater? Cheaters? What does the institutional tolerance of cheaters, who get rewarded with higher grades for less effort, teach students who better master the material and might be rewarded with even a lower grade. A properly administered single sanction honor system means that the graduates have been screened not only for academic excellence, but for character as well.

    The absence of such a system means that you can not trust a graduate's academic credentials or his character.

    The military academies require that students turn in other students who cheat or be treated as a co-conspirator and expelled with the cheater. In an environment that will be graduating military officers, making life and death decisions and representing our country with force of arms around the world, do you want it any other way?

    To answer those who will say, well, someone will figure out a way to cheat anyway; probably so. But in an academic setting governed by a good honor system, they will be in the extreme minority and they will come and go. Think of the honor system as an ethical immune system. With it, you can be exposed to a pathogen and throw it off. Without it, the pathogen threatens to take over the host.
     


  8. argoth

    argoth Senior member

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    I'd have to report 9/10 students in some of my classes if the "honor system" were actually in enforceable. Which, of course, would mean that it would turn into 9 versus 1 and I'd probably end up getting suspended for cheating in the even that I attempted to actually turn anyone in.

    Congratulations on your Ivy diploma. Not that the classes aren't dumbed down to the point where any idiot that shows up can't pass.

    Arg
     


  9. Bandwagonesque

    Bandwagonesque Senior member

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    Wow, I'm terribly sorry that I struck such a nerve with you Mr Rogers. I'd love to take the time to reply to your well written flames, but I'll wait a few years for you to learn to reply without resorting to calling the other party a punk, little girl, or questioning the size of my testicles.

    All of this following your statement of:
    Now if that isn't flawed logic, I don't know what is. I'd hate to see what you're like when you are being a dick.
     


  10. Liberty Ship

    Liberty Ship Senior member

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    I'd have to report 9/10 students in some of my classes if the "honor system" were actually in enforceable. Which, of course, would mean that it would turn into 9 versus 1 and I'd probably end up getting suspended for cheating in the even that I attempted to actually turn anyone in.

    Congratulations on your Ivy diploma. Not that the classes aren't dumbed down to the point where any idiot that shows up can't pass.

    Arg


    Argoth, are you talking to me? If so, you 9 vs. 1 reference only confirms my notion that once cheating gets a foothold, it will permeate the ethos.

    Also, I don't have an "Ivy Diploma," more "Kudzu League."
     


  11. denning

    denning Senior member

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    I don't really want to get involved in this debate (despite how interesting I think it is) but I think it's intriguing to hear some people say cheaters get what they deserve but at the same time you shouldn't "rat" on them. How do these two views coexist?
     


  12. Bandwagonesque

    Bandwagonesque Senior member

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    How do these two views coexist?
    The stigma associated with being a snitch/whistleblower/narc/rat/squealer. For doing what most on this board (so far) consider the ethical thing to do, there sure are a lot of pejorative terms for it. People can generally see what's right and wrong - it's just that they don't want the label associated with it.
     


  13. Tiranis

    Tiranis Senior member

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    Deleted Bah, nevermind. This is for a long post and I'm not in the mood.
     


  14. Augusto86

    Augusto86 Sean Penn's Mexican love child

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    Hey, cheating is just Free Market Capitalism, right?
     


  15. Bandwagonesque

    Bandwagonesque Senior member

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    Hey, cheating is just Free Market Capitalism, right?

    When you turn in a cheater, you support COMMUNISM. [​IMG]
     


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