english shoes quality heirachy

[Panama]

I am not a fan of preloved items. This evening I bought three pairs of Oxfords. I could have bought one item from C&J.

Cheaney Alfred Capped Oxford in Mocha. Reduced from £380.00 to £225.00

Cheaney Beaton Oxford (discontinued) in Black. Reduced from £295.00 to £159.00

Loake Wadham Oxford in Brown. Reduced from £225.00 to £110.00

Hopefully they will all fit perfectly...

 

[shoefan57]

Interesting article about Church's shoes, I do agree they are very solid made GYW shoes.

About the evolution of the Goodyear Welt processes, the shoemaker's views are rather different to that of @DWFII .

" "30 years ago," explained the Lord from Church, "we did not use a gemband. We sew the soles, saw and edge directly together. But that was not a stable solution. The machines could not properly adapt to the unevenness of the soles. So the gemband, we climbed on the solesole, actually revolutionized the shoemaker in Northampton. It really gave a durable shoe, "said the shoemaker from the Church." This is translated on google, so some parts are not done properly.

Modern, Goodyear welting machine, where a gemband girdle is attached to the soles of the soles and sews it together with upper leather and welt.

Old-fashioned Goodyear welt sewing, where the soles are sewn directly together with the upper and the edge.

Canvas Gemming in the red circle glued to the insole.

From @DWFII,

"Here's a quick drawing that may clarify things a bit: (his diagrams are missing the leather uppers)

View attachment 961983


Top is the original GY. Insole @ 5-6mm.

Middle is contemporary GY (with the caveat that the insole is usually half as thick as illustrated--3mm?) and the holdfast is canvas cemented to the flesh side of the insole if...if it has a flesh side, if it is even leather.

Bottom is handwelted...insole is usually approximately 5-6 mm and sometimes a bit more

On a handwelted shoe, a channel is cut to about half the depth of the insole--simply to afford access to the center of the insole substance. And then a "feather" (a notch) is cut along the edge of the insole. All by hand. The inseam (stitching ) runs between the deepest end of the channel, through the leather between...which is called the "holdfast"...and the edge of the insole. You can see this clearly in the illustrations above. The flap is incidental. It may or may not exist. Sometimes a simple groove (still called a "channel") is cut and there is no flap.

Once upon a time, when the Goodyear technique was in its infancy, a good, relatively speaking, leather insole was cut (channeled) from the feather inward and another from where we commonly begin the channel today. This produced two flaps of insole leather which were turned upright and glued together to form a sort of holdfast that looks like your illustration. The welt was then stitched to that "wall" of leather.

The downside was that in order to do this the two channel cuts had to very nearly meet, which made the "holdfast" very weak. And to further compound the issue, the holdfast was turned such that a great deal of stress was placed on the remaining, and critically attaching, fibers.

As I understand it...I wasn't there and I've never seen written documentation to support this...the problem was addressed by covering the leather holdfast with linen or canvas cloth. The beginning of gemming...and the end of any pretense of quality being "job one" for most manufacturers.

Bottom line, however, is that while this may have been a partial solution it still required a decent quality leather insole. Which costs money. And it added one more procedure. And more time.

And time is money.

So eventually the leather holdfast was eliminated and that meant that a cheaper leather insole could be used (or even a synthetic insole material). And one less step.

A win/win for everybody except the customer looking for quality."

I’ve been told the same thing by a bespoke shoemaker, I.e. that the holdfast cut into the insole would often break. He told me that’s why the canvas rub construction was brought into the factories.
Clearly handwelted and especially bespoke are the best but my worry is that the best becomes the enemy of the good. Most people can’t afford the price of bespoke shoes or rtw hand welted and Goodyear welted shoes last a long time and are good shoes, just not the best.

 

[Diego65]

Hi everyone, it is fascinating to read your post. Here my two cents: Luckily, I live near Northampton that allowed me to trip very often to the factories shops. Imagine how many pairs I own of Church´s, C&J, EG, Cheaney, AS and John Loob, but not only from Northampton, I own a few pairs from Carmina, and I love my C&J followed by Carmina. Church´s no much love, but I like to wear those shoes (not all are seconds, I must say 50/50)
I´m a boot guy most of the time. However, at work, I wear oxfords mainly.
Really between EG, Church´s and C&J, the most comfortable are the C&J. Cheaney are good, but the leather is not as good, and the break-in period is long compared to the others brands. Also, I saw a picture of a pair of Cheaney that lost the heal in the snow . Anyway, I have no complaints and enjoy every shoe I own, and if I write my list:

C&J
Carmina
EG
Church´s
AS
JL
Cheaney (looks like the leather are not as good, maybe it is a perception)

One more thing, the seconds from these brands are excellent; I can´t see any difference, only the stamp that says seconds. Maybe if you tune hard, there are some leather imperfections but barely noticeable.
I thought that at this level of shoemaking, the difference is minimal, and all rest on perception and comfort.

 

[PairOfDerby's]

Are you from Northampton?

 

[Diego65]

Are you from Northampton?

Yes, I´m close to the town, really close.

 

[PairOfDerby's]

Yes, I´m close to the town, really close.

Who has the best selection/prices in the outlet shops? I've only been to the Church's shop but fancy cheaney, C&J and Trickers. I'm only an hour up the M1.

 

[Braid]

Who has the best selection/prices in the outlet shops? I've only been to the Church's shop but fancy cheaney, C&J and Trickers. I'm only an hour up the M1.

Crockett and jones has a decent selection of shoes but is basically a back room in the factory, only few models are on display and then you have to ask the staff. So not really easy to browse the available shoes. If I remember well shoes are priced 220£ and boots 250£.

Cheaney is more like a real shop, they also sells firsts that are discontinued or samples.

I have never been to Trickers but would be curious as well to know how it is.

 

[Northants bloke]

Cheaney is a little way from Northampton. It is in Desborough near Kettering near the A6 and A14. I really like their factory shop. Loake's factory outlet is close by too in neighbouring Market Harborough.

 

[Diego65]

Who has the best selection/prices in the outlet shops? I've only been to the Church's shop but fancy Cheaney, C&J and Trickers. I'm only an hour up the M1.

Hi, I usually do this: First stop, C&J to me good deals, I normally find shoes between 180-250 Libras they don't have all the catalogue, but with perseverance, you can find what you are looking for. It is on the first floor of the factory, a tinny factory shop and the people is friendly, every time I make them look in the back for shoes , 2nd stop Church´s, (EG during the week because is not open on weekends), and 3er stop Cheaney Factory Shop which is 30 min driving from Northampton one thing about the Cheaney it has exclusive models for the factory shop, I bought last time (last Saturday) a pair of boots that not sale on the other shops and I pay 250 pounds (no seconds) keep in mind that Cheaney Factory Shop opens on Sundays too. You can add Trickers and JL, but maybe it is too much. I spend a lot of time in every shop. Good hunt!!!

 

[Northants bloke]

Hi, I usually do this: First stop, C&J to me good deals, I normally find shoes between 180-250 Libras they don't have all the catalogue, but with perseverance, you can find what you are looking for. It is on the first floor of the factory, a tinny factory shop and the people is friendly, every time I make them look in the back for shoes , 2nd stop Church´s, (EG during the week because is not open on weekends), and Cheaney Factory Shop is 30 min driving from Northampton one thing about the Cheaney it has exclusive models for the factory shop I bought a pair of boots that not sale on the other shops and pay 250 pounds (no seconds). You can add Trickers and JL, but maybe it is too much. I spend a lot of time in every shop. Good hunt!!!

CJ are very restricted hours. I think Friday and Saturday morning.

Another option for those that like them. 7-10 miles East of Northampton are
Barker's (Earls Barton) and NPS/Solovair (Wollaston).

 

[Diego65]

CJ are very restricted hours. I think Friday and Saturday morning.

Another option for those that like them. 7-10 miles East of Northampton are
Barker's (Earls Barton) and NPS/Solovair (Wollaston).

You are right C&J opening hours Friday 1.30 pm to 4.30 pm, and Saturday 10 am to 1.30 pm, on Friday they received stock