English dandyism, yesterday's and today's

[RJmanbearpig]

Originally Posted by Manton

Detente, dude, it's all about the detente.
But he is so repulsive.

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by RJmanbearpig

But he is so repulsive.
Would Nixon be better? Brezhnev? Gromyko?

But detente was Henry the K's idea. It must be Henry.

 

[RJmanbearpig]

Originally Posted by Manton

Would Nixon be better? Brezhnev? Gromyko?

But detente was Henry the K's idea. It must be Henry.

I love this picture of Nixon:

 

[binge]

Originally Posted by Manton

Would Nixon be better? Brezhnev? Gromyko?

But detente was Henry the K's idea. It must be Henry.

How about Gen. Gogol, from the end of For Your Eyes Only?

[to Gen. Gogol, after throwing the ATAC system over a cliff]
James Bond: That's detente, comrade; *You* don't have it, *I* don't have it.
[Gen. Gogol laughs]

 

[Siggy]

A dandy assumes a bit of an aristocratic manner by distinguishing himself from the bourgoisie through his refined style and taste in clothing, appreciation of quality and small excentricity in the details of dress.

I personally love the Alice books and the Tenniel illustrations and do not find anything "creepy" or childish about any of that or the ties.

 

[robasaurus]

Originally Posted by Siggy

A dandy assumes a bit of an aristocratic manner by distinguishing himself from the bourgoisie through his refined style and taste in clothing, appreciation of quality and small excentricity in the details of dress.

I personally love the Alice books and the Tenniel illustrations and do not find anything "creepy" or childish about any of that or the ties.

For what it's worth, I actually love the white rabbit vest. Dandy in all the right ways.

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Thank you people. Just in case anyone wonders what vest we're talking about: http://www.filmnoirbuff.com/article/dream-weavers

 

[Jerome]

I bascically hate the Dandy movement since its a bourgeoise/Enlightenment fashion with its boring simplicity and pseudo asceticism...the fact that many English nobles like that fat prince/king got onboard doesnt excuse its manifestations a bit- it is actually the form in that the English nobility dealt with the national liberation movements on the continent...all that oh so *stoic* demeanour (not showing ones emotions etc.) I find highly unnatural and also utterly philistine. "A true nobleman OR a true farmer/free-man would always be more truthful than those bourgeois snobs and fops" is basically my opinion- so its nothing worth emulating...

edit: At the time of the French Revolution a dame of the nobility was advised to disguise herself as a lower class person. She said: "As a poor farmer- possibly- but bourgeoise: NEVER!"...(I could look that up (who it was etc.) if anyones interested...)

 

[LabelKing]

The dandy appears to be a middle-class creation. Most great dandies were from that class. However, there are exceptions.

The fop seems to be a largely aristocratic affair.

 

[Nantucket Red]

Originally Posted by Manton

I would put this a bit differently.

The reason people react negatively is not because the rabbit vest/tie are "personal." That alone is not enough. It is the childishness of it, the sad element of fantasy that a grown man would spend that kind of money, and invest that amount of time, to reinforce an Internet persona.

For all your talk about how so many of us (me above all) take the Internet too seriously, you are the only one who has gone to these astounding lengths.

When I was seven I dressed up as Han Solo. When I was seven.

This is an interesting take, but something that would never have occurred to me. I just assumed the Tenniel illustration of the white rabbit symbolized the dandy for FNB even before the existence of the internet, and that this is why he chose it for his avatar. Either way, it's mere conjecture.

By the way, I didn't know you were that much younger than me. I was about 14 when Star Wars came out, which makes you only half my age.

 

[gentleman amateur]

Originally Posted by Nantucket Red

This is an interesting take, but something that would never have occurred to me. I just assumed the Tenniel illustration of the white rabbit symbolized the dandy for FNB even before the existence of the internet, and that this is why he chose it for his avatar. Either way, it's mere conjecture.

By the way, I didn't know you were that much younger than me. I was about 14 when Star Wars came out, which makes you only half my age.

I was 12 when Star Wars came out in 1977. Nice avatar of this Osaka girl. Blows away much of what appears in a magazine with a bunny as a logo.

 

[RJmanbearpig]

Originally Posted by binge

How about Gen. Gogol, from the end of For Your Eyes Only?

Wasn't Gromyko the name of Gogol's secretary?


I heard Gromyko had a secretary named Gogol.

 

[Jerome]

Originally Posted by LabelKing

The dandy appears to be a middle-class creation. Most great dandies were from that class. However, there are exceptions.

The fop seems to be a largely aristocratic affair.
Thanks for pointing out that distinction, your contributions are always welcome, LK.
...Don't think that I was not inspired by the dandies myself. It is of course nearly impossible to escape the middle class nowadays- we are all IT, already* (myself included), whether we want or not, but what gives hope is a trend to some form of recurrence to archaism that is furthered by the extreme fragmentation of our civilisation and Weltanschauung (and hopefully the impeding failure of the bourgeoise fictional concepts of "economics" and "nation"). Art will once again be more ornate without being kitschy, I hope- people will more and more HAVE to "discover" the practicability of Absolute Truth, again. In 30 years time todays postmodern nihilists will make pilgrimages to the ruined churches and beg God Himself for forgiveness for their present hubris.

* I would recommend to read Marx and Hegel these days since they are so beautifully out of vogue even with the present leftist philosophers but actually are also very accurate in their description of the present state of affairs; they actually predicted (if completely unwillingly/unbeknownst of themselves) todays bourgeoise and democratic predominance ["end of history" insofar as we simply cannot imagine a "better" system than democracy]. Marx, who also had a love-hate relationship with the bourgoisie cause he himself was utterly bourgois himself- wrote:

The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his "natural superiors", and has left no other nexus between people than naked self-interest, than callous "cash payment". It has drowned out the most heavenly ecstacies of religious fervor, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom -- Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation.[…]

The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionizing the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionizing of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real condition of life and his relations with his kind.

The need of a constantly expanding market for its products chases the bourgeoisie over the entire surface of the globe. It must nestle everywhere, settle everywhere, establish connections everywhere.

The bourgeoisie has, through its exploitation of the world market, given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country. To the great chagrin of reactionaries, it has drawn from under the feet of industry the national ground on which it stood. All old-established national industries have been destroyed or are daily being destroyed. They are dislodged by new industries, whose introduction becomes a life and death question for all civilized nations, by industries that no longer work up indigenous raw material, but raw material drawn from the remotest zones; industries whose products are consumed, not only at home, but in every quarter of the globe. In place of the old wants, satisfied by the production of the country, we find new wants, requiring for their satisfaction the products of distant lands and climes. In place of the old local and national seclusion and self-sufficiency, we have intercourse in every direction, universal inter-dependence of nations. And as in material, so also in intellectual production. The intellectual creations of individual nations become common property. National one-sidedness and narrow-mindedness become more and more impossible, and from the numerous national and local literatures, there arises a world literature.

The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by the immensely facilitated means of communication, draws all, even the most barbarian, nations into civilization. The cheap prices of commodities are the heavy artillery with which it forces the barbarians' intensely obstinate hatred of foreigners to capitulate. It compels all nations, on pain of extinction, to adopt the bourgeois mode of production; it compels them to introduce what it calls civilization into their midst, i.e., to become bourgeois themselves. In one word, it creates a world after its own image.[...]

http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/cl...manifesto.html

 

[Film Noir Buff]

Originally Posted by Nantucket Red

This is an interesting take, but something that would never have occurred to me. I just assumed the Tenniel illustration of the white rabbit symbolized the dandy for FNB even before the existence of the internet, and that this is why he chose it for his avatar. Either way, it's mere conjecture. By the way, I didn't know you were that much younger than me. I was about 14 when Star Wars came out, which makes you only half my age.

It's not only conjecture it's context. If the viewpoint stems from a concern over what others' think and a desire to prove to that audience that you are acceptable, then the rabbit vest could cause resentment. The more extreme the concern with picking an item that cannot be argued with because of its plain vanilla-ness could indicate a phobia over being wrong. I mention in the vest essay that the rabbit motif was considered after a lot of other designs fell through but nowhere do I suggest that this isnt self-indulgence; I'm not sure why i would have to? Further for someone to suggest that it's disturbing to spend time and money on making something I wanted within a custom clothing venture is irresponsible to say the least. Still, at a minimum, without information about what the vest is to be worn with and for what occasions (unless that person is just a casual observer), that person would have a hard time claiming to be interested in and commanding respect with regards to opinions on tailored clothes.

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by Film Noir Buff

It's not only conjecture it's context. If the viewpoint stems from a concern over what others' think and a desire to prove to that audience that you are acceptable, then the rabbit vest could cause resentment.


The more extreme the concern with picking an item that cannot be argued with because of its plain vanilla-ness could indicate a phobia over being wrong.

I mention in the vest essay that the rabbit motif was considered after a lot of other designs fell through but nowhere do I suggest that this isnt self-indulgence; I'm not sure why i would have to? Further for someone to suggest that it's disturbing to spend time and money on making something I wanted within a custom clothing venture is irresponsible to say the least.

Still, at a minimum, without information about what the vest is to be worn with and for what occasions (unless that person is just a casual observer), that person would have a hard time claiming to be interested in and commanding respect with regards to opinions on tailored clothes.

x4