EG advise against Topy rubber soles

[greekgeek]

All this talk on whether or not rubber provides better traction vs. leather soles gives me a bit of a headache. Under most conditions you would expect that rubber (sufficiently soft, preferably textured) provides better traction vs. a smooth leather sole.

Just because both materials perform equally poor on sheet ice does not change this.

Tribology 101.

 

[greekgeek]

Oh and I will add that many plastics/rubbers are permeable to moisture. Not sure what these topy pieces or soles are made of but MVTR varies quite a bit from one to the next.

 

[pebblegrain]

Originally Posted by softy

For me, wearing a rubber topy sole on a shoe would be akin to wearing cloth tape inside the neck of my shirt.

Totally agree, I do it at least 5 times per week

 

[Archivist]

What brand of cloth tape provides optimal traction and protection for leather soles?

 

[Infrasonic]

Apparently the F1 teams in the know will be running with the Pirelli leather options and prime tyres this Sunday in Spain, as it has been scientifically proved that leather trounces rubber for grip...

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by greekgeek

All this talk on whether or not rubber provides better traction vs. leather soles gives me a bit of a headache. Under most conditions you would expect that rubber (sufficiently soft, preferably textured) provides better traction vs. a smooth leather sole. Just because both materials perform equally poor on sheet ice does not change this. Tribology 101.
I'm not so sure. The rubber heel and sole industry was a direct spin-off of the rubber tire industry. Up until recently, one of the major brand names was "Goodyear." Except for cushion crepe, rubber for heels and soles is really dense and almost impervious to incidental abrasion. Again, leather is a fiber mat. I think people confuse the way an unworn leather sole feels and one that has had the wax and grain worn off. As I said, I walk on ice and snow regularly and am more concerned with the rubber on my heels than the leather under foot. If nothing else, leather will pick up some grit when it is exposed to moisture and at that point you are effectively walking with a surface that has its own micro-spikes. Leather is certainly porous in a way that rubber...Topy included...never was and never will be. We see this clearly when trying to cement it. Bottom line for me...in my opinion and based on 40 years of intimate experience ...choose to install Topy for the added wear that you may get. Choose to install Topy because it obviates having an inexperienced cobbler disturb the outsole and welting. Do not choose Topy because you think it will automatically provide more traction than leather on slippery surfaces. There are too many other real-world situations where, perhaps counter-intuitively (like vapour), I suspect it will disappoint.

 

[softy]

I don't even know what you all are harping on. I get all my bespoke Edward Green shoes with cleats.

 

[meister]

Originally Posted by Claus

In other words, some amount of moisture will probably remain in a Goodyear-welted shoe forever unless it's used seldom.

Just an observation having bought many vintage shoes which have some degree of wear (Sunday goin' to church) versus buying NOS vintage - would tend to bear this assessment out.

I have found "having been used" actually contributes to the quality of the leather for that reason.

This is presuming the used shoe is left somewhere that is not weather prone.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by Infrasonic

Apparently the F1 teams in the know will be running with the Pirelli leather options and prime tyres this Sunday in Spain, as it has been scientifically proved that leather trounces rubber for grip...
Gee, they (and you) would be lost at the original Olympics; crippled and house-bound throughout most of recorded history. And Mallory may have gotten to the top (at worst within 2,000 ft) of Everest in leather soles and hobnails. Truth is often stranger than fiction...

 

[greekgeek]

Originally Posted by Nick V.

WADR to every one's comments.
I have handled 10's of thousands of high-grade shoes during my 34 years. We work on EG's, CJ's, Church's, Westons, Lobbs and more every day. I have relationships with several high ranking executives in the high-grade shoe industry. We talk shop all the time. I understand their business. They understand mine. We all understand that they are two different things.
Now, to disclose: I've never worked on a pair of shoes in my life. Don't possibly have the time to.
I supervise and direct. I have also worked with some of the most talented craftsmen throughout the world. Some have resented me. Others love working with me. Here's why, I like to share what I learn from all my resources in the shop. Some guys are too hard-headed to learn. I also incorporate heavily what I learn from customers comments/experiences.
Having explained, to say sole guards shorten a shoes life, I've never seen it happen.
I liken it to finding a hair on an egg then, splitting the hair.
BTW I never saw a pair of CJ's for instance, with a Dainite sole, come in with blackened or prematurely ruined insoles because of a rubber sole.
I'll agree to disagree but, to me it simply comes down to personal preference.

QFI

 

[apropos]

Originally Posted by DWFII

I suspect that in the long run, if only for personal growth, it is far better to be an armchair scientist and employ reason and experience and knowledge than to be an internet dilettante and employ Google and Wikipedia.
This is where we part ways. Observation and experience ain't everything, I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. In my industry it counts for a lot on an interpersonal level (as in wow he has lots of experience and thus gets respect), but in the grand scheme of things to us - it's the next worst thing to guessing. You have a lot of subjective experience - no one is disputing that. The problem is that you then apply flawed backwards reasoning to explain your observations - e.g. laws of physics which exist only in DFWII world: water is heavier than air --> water laden air must be heavier --> that's why fog hugs the ground, and shoes don't dry well despite there being a gaping hole in the top. And as a cherry on all this you lay it on thick. You speak as an authority, while nearly everytime questioning the authority of others. You don't just proffer opinions - just 'facts'. IMO there is nothing wrong with being a 'dilentantte', motivations aside at least it shows a thirst for knowledge and a willingness to accept that the world does not work in accordance to one's own subjective experiences. IMO it is much worse being someone who thinks that because they have experience it automatically qualifies them to be an expert and then they shut their ears (and minds) - in my industry people like that kill other people. Think about all this back and forth for the last page or 2 that could have been avoided if you had just done a Google/Wikipedia search, which you seem to disdain so much. At the least I guess it shows that you stick to your guns, which I guess is a desirable trait in a shoemaker who works with traditional methods.

Just my 0.02.

 

[DWFII]

^Well, I'm not an " armchair Shoemaker"...like so many here. I only speak with authority about things I know. I admitted up front that I was not a physicist.

I didn't pretend to be a shoemaker (or physicist) while really being only a Googlewonk.

I didn't pretend at all...and that my friend is the difference between our two points of view.

And in the long run the only thing that actually is "apropos."

 

[ThatGuy]

Originally Posted by apropos

This is where we part ways.

Observation and experience ain't everything, I'm sorry but that's just the way it is.

In my industry it counts for a lot on an interpersonal level (as in wow he has lots of experience and thus gets respect), but in the grand scheme of things to us - it's the next worst thing to guessing.

You have a lot of subjective experience - no one is disputing that.

The problem is that you then apply flawed backwards reasoning to explain your observations - e.g. laws of physics which exist only in DFWII world: water is heavier than air --> water laden air must be heavier --> that's why fog hugs the ground, and shoes don't dry well despite there being a gaping hole in the top.

And as a cherry on all this you lay it on thick. You speak as an authority, while nearly everytime questioning the authority of others. You don't just proffer opinions - just 'facts'.

IMO there is nothing wrong with being a 'dilentantte', motivations aside at least it shows a thirst for knowledge and a willingness to accept that the world does not work in accordance to one's own subjective experiences.

IMO it is much worse being someone who thinks that because they have experience it automatically qualifies them to be an expert and then they shut their ears (and minds) - in my industry people like that kill other people.

Think about all this back and forth for the last page or 2 that could have been avoided if you had just done a Google/Wikipedia search, which you seem to disdain so much. At the least I guess it shows that you stick to your guns, which I guess is a desirable trait in a shoemaker who works with traditional methods.

Just my 0.02.

I'm not experienced, nor have I had any issues walking in snow, hail and tropical rain whilst wearing leather soled shoes... however, my opinion stands that people who topy nice shoes are cheapskates who need to take a refresher course in walking / how to distribute their weight more evenly.

BRB applying a rubber strap under my alligator strap because it will prevent my watch head moving due to its weight.

It's all down to preference. You all keep topying and I will think you're cheap and you bought them second hand, off the bay, off B&S, from an op shop. No loss... clearly there are lot's of people here who do that looking at the types of threads posted on the boards.

I would guess the group of people here who really like their nice shoes, would not topy/ defile their shoes. And I'm sure such people know how to walk.

In the last year, I know of one person who stacked it in the rain... it was a guy who was wearing rubber soled shoes. I do not and I've never fallen down. Ever.

 

[Archivist]

Slips have nothing to do with "knowing how to walk". Slips can and do lead to serious injury. This has been studied empirically and objectively.

For example
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/as042

For 2006, the National Safety Council reported that unintentional injury led to over 27 million visits to emergency rooms. Typically, falls lead all other causes of ER visits. In 2007, falls led to the death of 21,600 Americans. In fact, the number of deaths (and the death rate) due to unintentional injury have been increasing for several years. [NSC 2008 "Report..."]

Slips are primarily caused by a slippery surface and compounded by wearing the wrong footwear. In normal walking, two types of slips occur. The first of these occurs as the heel of the forward foot contacts the walking surface. Then, the front foot slips forward, and the person falls backward.

The second type of fall occurs when the rear foot slips backward. The force to move forward is on the sole of the rear foot. As the rear heal is lifted and the force moves forward to the front of the sole, the foot slips back and the person falls.

To prevent slips and falls, a high coefficient of friction (COF) between the shoe and walking surface is needed (Figure 1). On icy, wet, and oily surfaces, the COF can be as low as 0.10 with shoes that are not slip resistant. A COF of 0.40 to 0.50 or more is needed for excellent traction. To put these figures in perspective, a brushed concrete surface and a rubber heel will often show a COF greater than 1.0. Leather soles on a wet smooth surface, such as ceramic tile or ice, may have a COF as low as 0.10.

I'll leave it to those who are interested to do their own research into COF (coefficient of friction).

On the topic of being a "googlewonk" or an armchair physicist, I formally studied general and organic chemistry, then material science. My prior career was as a rare book conservator, and I have extensive study and experience with the chemistry and physical properties of paper and leather. I've worked on leather that is over 1000 years old. Not shoes mind you. I claim no special knowledge of shoes.

I respect the opinions and experience of at least some of the people who post here. Particularly, I respect the experience of DWFII, I find his posts generally informative and interesting. But in some cases he is simply drawing incorrect conclusions.

I entirely agree with apropos' conclusions.

 

[pebblegrain]

Originally Posted by ThatGuy

I'm not experienced, nor have I had any issues walking in snow, hail and tropical rain whilst wearing leather soled shoes... however, my opinion stands that people who topy nice shoes are cheapskates who need to take a refresher course in walking / how to distribute their weight more evenly. ..... In the last year, I know of one person who stacked it in the rain... it was a guy who was wearing rubber soled shoes. I do not and I've never fallen down. Ever.
Re-learn how to walk in order to accommodate $1400 shoes? no. I drive around without seatbelts, haven't died once yet. therefore, it must be perfectly safe...