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EG advise against Topy rubber soles

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by kolecho, Oct 31, 2006.

  1. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior member

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    Moist air is lighter than dry air, not the other way around. Simple physics. H2O weighs less than O2 or N2, and for a given pressure there is an equal number of molecules per unit volume.

    Is that right? That's why fog hugs the ground, why it rains...

    H2O is three molecules two of which are in semi-solid state. O2 is two molecules.

    I'm not a physicist I could be wrong but would you care to reconsider?



    This discussion risks getting off topic!

    Whilst it seems counter-intuitive, it is correct that moist air is lighter than dry air.

    This is because the water vapour in moist air displaces other gases that normally comprise air. For example, if you have a litre of moist air, and a litre of dry air, the moist air will contain fewer 02 and N2 molecules as they will have been displaced by water vapour.

    Whilst H2O would, at first thought, be a larger molecule, it is not as heavy as O2 or N2. This is because Hydrogen is extremely light - it has an atomic weight of 1, whilst oxygen has an atomic weight of 16 and nitrogen has an atomic weight of 28. So, one molecule of water vapour will have an atomic weight of 18 (16 +1+1), whilst a molecule of oxygen will have an atomic weight of 32 and a nitrogen molecule will have an atomic weight of 56.

    Therefore, by reducing the density of O2 and N2, and replacing it with H2O, moist air is quite a bit lighter (relatively speaking, of course, as air is already very light!) than dry air.
     
  2. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    This used to be correct, until scientists figured out that observations alone cannot confirm or reject a theory. Only scientific experimentation is able to do that. This means to reduce all possible outside influences except one which is thought to be the cause of the studied effect. Additionally, by the same means scientists figured out that people have biases concerning observations and experience. Recollections are not that precise, and are often "recreated" according to the theories one holds. Careful and complete documentation is key to scientific knowledge. Consenquently, a proposition like "Leather insoles on shoes with rubber soles turn black and crack sooner than if the outsoles are also leather" is not scientific unless you have complete notations about the age of the shoes, its usage, other behaviour of its wearer, the objective quality of the insole, etc. and a proper statistic evaluation what most likely caused the effect you noted. Just saying.
    I agree with you...it begs the question, though, doesn't it?-- Compared to what?
     
  3. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    This discussion risks getting off topic! Whilst it seems counter-intuitive, it is correct that moist air is lighter than dry air. This is because the water vapour in moist air displaces other gases that normally comprise air. For example, if you have a litre of moist air, and a litre of dry air, the moist air will contain fewer 02 and N2 molecules as they will have been displaced by water vapour. Whilst H2O would, at first thought, be a larger molecule, it is not as heavy as O2 or N2. This is because Hydrogen is extremely light - it has an atomic weight of 1, whilst oxygen has an atomic weight of 16 and nitrogen has an atomic weight of 28. So, one molecule of water vapour will have an atomic weight of 18 (16 +1+1), whilst a molecule of oxygen will have an atomic weight of 32 and a nitrogen molecule will have an atomic weight of 56. Therefore, by reducing the density of O2 and N2, and replacing it with H2O, moist air is quite a bit lighter (relatively speaking, of course, as air is already very light!) than dry air.
    I have no credentials or expertise to question you but perhaps you could clarify by answering a few of my lingering doubts... Is oxygen heavier than water? If so, why does water pool and oxygen "float"? When we speak of "moist air" are we talking about a different and perhaps unknown third molecular compound with characteristics different from either oxygen or water? Or are we talking about a gas "transporting" a semi-solid? I see it as being similar to a dirigible...is the dirigible more buoyant with or without a payload? Speaking about "moist air" and water "vapour" is convenient but it disguises the fact that it is not really one thing, it is two--water and air. It is not, now that I think about it, three molecules (H2O) versus two molecules (O2 or N2). It is really five molecules--two hydrogen and three oxygen. From a layman's point of view, water is heavier than air, ipso facto any combination of water and air must be heavier than air alone. As in the dirigible analogy. Or is that wrong and if it is, how so? And to bring it all back around to the topic at hand, how is my relatively uninformed speculation about the physics of moist air any different from the patently ignorant speculation about leather insoles and outsoles and whether Topy prevents beneficial wicking?
     
  4. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Don't forget that dry air is a composition of oxygen and nitrogen. If humid air is denser then there would be zero chance of cloud formation or rain as it wouldn't rise in the first place.
    I'm not sure I understand this...both oxygen and nitrogen are heavier than hydrogen and yet they seem to rise in the atmosphere just fine. Here's my thoughts/speculation... Because one element is denser/heavier than another doesn't mean that it cannot rise in the atmosphere nor that a compound ...as opposed to the element itself...can't exhibit different characteristics. And when it comes to moist air we are not even talking about a compound are we? The compound is water. Moist air is just a suspension of water in air. Air transports water. It is not a molecular compound. Does that make any sense?
     
  5. apropos

    apropos Senior member

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    ...and this kids is why being an armchair scientist is not a good thing. [​IMG]
     
  6. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    ...and this kids is why being an armchair scientist is not a good thing. [​IMG]
    Are you a scientist? A physicist? I am asking...I am open-minded enough to not only admit my lack of expertise but to ask for instruction. How about you? About any subject? I suspect that in the long run, if only for personal growth, it is far better to be an armchair scientist and employ reason and experience and knowledge than to be an internet dilettante and employ Google and Wikipedia. At least I'm not pretending.
     
  7. saint

    saint Senior member

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    This thread has really gone off the rails. FWIW, I've used Topy's on good (EG, CJ for RL, Grenson, Alden etc) shoes for years. After a couple of years I'll stop replacing the Topy and let it and then the sole wear down, and then have the shoes resoled. I have never had a problem with any of my shoes, but I do use shoe trees and give shoes a minimum of a day's rest in between wearings. I can't imagine that moisture stays in the sole significantly longer under these circumstances.

    As far as the opinion that Topys on the bottom of shoes look "inelegant", if someone's weird enough to care what the soles of my shoes look like, I really don't care what they think.
     
  8. Claus

    Claus Senior member

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    I agree with you...it begs the question, though, doesn't it?-- Compared to what?
    The topic is whether leather soles with Tobys causes a faster destruction of the insole compared to pure leather soles, isn't it? Quick research reveals that one's feet are among the most perspiring parts of the body, with more than 250,000 sweat glands each. In one day, each foot can produce more than a pint of sweat, about half a liter for us Europeans. Given usual usage, a fraction thereof remains in your socks, in the shoe, and also in the air that may be pumped in and out of the shoes while you walk. So, we can probably agree that the amount of sweat in your shoes is affected at least by
    • the sort of socks one wears,
    • how often one changes socks during a day,
    • how much one walks,
    • the type of shoes, and
    • its fit.
    For instance, "closed" shoes like boots are less likely to have air pumped in and out during walking, so their insoles have to deal with more moisture compared to 'common' shoe types. My guess would be that the socks absorb the larger amount of moisture. Expressed differently, a bad habit of wearing the same pair of socks for two days in a row is likely to have a worse effect on the insoles than Topys. We can probably also agree that the rest of the sweat is absorbed by the upper and the insole alike. Without further information, absorption is a matter of the available surface. Consequently, the upper absorbs a larger fraction of the sweat compared to the insole. It's hard to say -- given all the variables -- how much moisture remains in the insole after a day of wear. For the sake of the discussion, however, let's assume it's a teaspoon full of water, basically. Now, let's consider evaporation... We can probably also agree that evaporation is also a matter of available surface. The upper has larger surface, so it should dry faster than the insole. Your analogy to a teaspoon, however, fails here since is has a smaller surface compared to the insole. For a fairer test, you should put a teaspoon of water on a small plate and have it rest for 24 hours. We can probably also agree that the layer of cork, tarboard or tar paper is a barrier to evaporation, so only another fraction of the moisture in the insole will ever reach the outsole. In other words, some amount of moisture will probably remain in a Goodyear-welted shoe forever unless it's used seldom. Now, how much moisture could ever reach the outsole? A millimeter or two, maybe? Let's say five. So, this is what a Toby would do: Prevent five millimeter of sweat to evaporate from the inside. At the same time, though, it prevents outside water to be absorbed by the outsole. It's really hard to tell what the net effect would be. Even if the net effect is negative, there's also the question if the cumulative effect matters. Consider for example the different prices of shoes. A rather cheap 400 dollar shoe is unlikely to be affected by the cumulative effect, because it's probably broken due to other causes before moisture will matter. 1000 dollar shoes are more likely to live long enough for Topys to have a negative effect; even more so for 2000 dollar shoes. In other words: Just the average price of shoes may explain the difference between your and NickV's observations, provided Nick repairs less expensive shoes on average. tl;dr Science is complicated.
     
  9. Pendulum

    Pendulum Senior member

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    I have no credentials or expertise to question you but perhaps you could clarify by answering a few of my lingering doubts... Is oxygen heavier than water? If so, why does water pool and oxygen "float"?
    Oxygen, by its molecular weight is heavier than water, but that's neither here nor there. Water is liquid at room temperature, whereas pure oxygen is gas which means that water is far more dense than oxygen at RT. The reason behind this is water forms hydrogen bonds between each molecule which has a great effect on the boiling points of the liquid, due to the molecules being highly attracted to each other and energy being required to overcome this barrier.
    You're thinking too much into this. Water is not heavier than air, it is denser than air when comparing liquid water and gaseous air. However by being vaporised (in a gaseous state) Dalton's law states that the total pressure is the sum of the partial pressures of each individual component of the constituent gas. That is to say that dry air for example may have a pressure of 1, with components 70% N, 20% O, 10% other gases. So you can write this as 1=0.7P(N2)+0.2P(O2)+0.1P(others) If you then have moist air you are increasing the relative level of H2O, whilst decreasing the level of N2, O2 etc. which are heavier per molecule than H2O. This means that assuming the pressure does not increase, the partial pressures of N2, O2 and other gases would decrease to accommodate for the additional H2O in the air. Say there was 5% water in the air by composition then: 1=0.67P(N2)+0.19P(O2)+0.09P(others)+0.05P(H2O) If we then assign molecular weights to each (N2 = 28, O2 = 32, others = 15, H2O = 18) then the two are. Dry = 27.5g per pressure unit Moist = 26.95g per pressure unit Massively geeky first post here.
     
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  10. Nicola

    Nicola Senior member

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    I'm not sure I understand this...both oxygen and nitrogen are heavier than hydrogen and yet they seem to rise in the atmosphere just fine.

    Here's my thoughts/speculation...

    Because one element is denser/heavier than another doesn't mean that it cannot rise in the atmosphere nor that a compound ...as opposed to the element itself...can't exhibit different characteristics.

    And when it comes to moist air we are not even talking about a compound are we? The compound is water. Moist air is just a suspension of water in air. Air transports water. It is not a molecular compound.

    Does that make any sense?



    Think of compressed gas. In it's heavily compressed form you have lots of gas in a small space. Now release the pressure and it goes flying around.

    If it gets cold enough oxygen does become a liquid. If water gets hot enough it turns to a gas (aka steam). In it's gas form you'll notice it rises.
     
  11. Pendulum

    Pendulum Senior member

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    Think of compressed gas. In it's heavily compressed form you have lots of gas in a small space. Now release the pressure and it goes flying around.

    If it gets cold enough oxygen does become a liquid. If water gets hot enough it turns to a gas (aka steam). In it's gas form you'll notice it rises.


    Although the reason the gas form of water rises is due to the temperature difference. PV=nRT therefore per unit area a hotter gas will be at a lower pressure (and therefore rise) than the same gas at a lower temperature.
     
  12. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    ^ Thank you. I'll have to think about this. I keep coming back tot the idea of water molecules displacing air molecules in any volume of air. Tell me when I misstep...

    If we have two balloons one filled with nothing but air and the other with 5% water. which will be heavier/denser?

    No, I'm not arguing--henceforth I'll tell people/assume that moist air is lighter than dry air...but I just can't seem to get my head around it.
     
  13. flanker2000fr

    flanker2000fr Well-Known Member

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    no offense, this is a discussion around the emperors beard. i hear you walking, though.

    I'm not sure I understood that.

    As for DWFII's assertions, they are rather amusing: calling people armchairs scientists, questioning fellow cobbler's credentials, and then going on listing "facts" that he has observed. Could this be any more subjective? If these were such well known facts, we wouldn't be discussing them at length here, would we?

    If I follow his drift, on a particularly hot day, when one's foot has generated much perspiration, the outsole would be moist to the touch. Funny how I've never noticed this. Ever. Has anyone? No? Thought so.

    Sorry, I'll stick to what my cobbler, who has gone through hundreds of JL, C&J, EG, JMW etc. has told me. I've just sent him two pairs of 10 years old shoes, that he fitted with rubber outsoles, to be re-soled. I don't expect any issue, like there haven't been any on the previous 5 pairs I've sent him.
     
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  14. Fraiche

    Fraiche Senior member

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    So how much time is needed to dry a leather soled shoe? And is there a specific way to do it?

    I typically stick with rubber soles during rainy days...
     
  15. Pendulum

    Pendulum Senior member

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    ^ Thank you. I'll have to think about this. I keep coming back tot the idea of water molecules displacing air molecules in any volume of air. Tell me when I misstep...

    If we have two balloons one filled with nothing but air and the other with 5% water. which will be heavier/denser?

    No, I'm not arguing--henceforth I'll tell people/assume that moist air is lighter than dry air...but I just can't seem to get my head around it.


    Assuming that they are identical in all other respects (pressure, temperature etc.) then the 5% water will be lighter.
     
  16. flanker2000fr

    flanker2000fr Well-Known Member

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    I typically stick with rubber soles during rainy days...
    Careful!!! Are you insane? DWFII will soon explain to you that, because of the rubber sole, the insole is rotten to the core and full of bacteria from hell. You'll soon catch gangrene and your feet will fall off. It's a fact.
     
  17. Archivist

    Archivist Senior member

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    ^ Thank you. I'll have to think about this. I keep coming back tot the idea of water molecules displacing air molecules in any volume of air. Tell me when I misstep... If we have two balloons one filled with nothing but air and the other with 5% water. which will be heavier/denser? No, I'm not arguing--henceforth I'll tell people/assume that moist air is lighter than dry air...but I just can't seem to get my head around it.
    Have a look at these, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_matter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weight http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density You have to consider the state (solid, liquid, gas, let's ignore plasma) of the matter in question, and it's relative density, not it's weight. It's not so much whether h2o weighs more or less than "air" in a given state, it's the relatively density. Water vapor is gaseous. That's why it floats around. When air becomes saturated enough with water vapor, at a given temperature and pressure, the water vapor undergoes a phase change int a liquid state, and we get rain. At the same time, liquid water is constantly undergoing a phase change to a gaseous state, and floating up in the air. If water were simply a liquid that is heavier than air, then it would never go into the air, there would be no humidity, no rain. In the case of damp shoes, it's not liquid water moving to a dryer area, it's water vapor sublimating. It's going to move to a less dense area.
     
  18. pebblegrain

    pebblegrain Senior member

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    Assuming that they are identical in all other respects (pressure, temperature etc.) then the 5% water will be lighter.

    This.
     
  19. Odd I/O

    Odd I/O Senior member

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    Secondly, not all rubber inserts are born equal: Topy's are actually cheap, thick, rigid crap made of vulcanized rubber. On the other end of the spectrum, you have inserts made of natural rubber, that are thinner, more flexible, and virtually invisible unless you look directly under the sole. Illustration:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    What brand of rubber soles are those?
     
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  20. Nick V.

    Nick V. Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    WADR to every one's comments.
    I have handled 10's of thousands of high-grade shoes during my 34 years. We work on EG's, CJ's, Church's, Westons, Lobbs and more every day. I have relationships with several high ranking executives in the high-grade shoe industry. We talk shop all the time. I understand their business. They understand mine. We all understand that they are two different things.
    Now, to disclose: I've never worked on a pair of shoes in my life. Don't possibly have the time to.
    I supervise and direct. I have also worked with some of the most talented craftsmen throughout the world. Some have resented me. Others love working with me. Here's why, I like to share what I learn from all my resources in the shop. Some guys are too hard-headed to learn. I also incorporate heavily what I learn from customers comments/experiences.
    Having explained, to say sole guards shorten a shoes life, I've never seen it happen.
    I liken it to finding a hair on an egg then, splitting the hair.
    BTW I never saw a pair of CJ's for instance, with a Dainite sole, come in with blackened or prematurely ruined insoles because of a rubber sole.
    I'll agree to disagree but, to me it simply comes down to personal preference.
     
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