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Tutu

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Speaking of the 137 vs 184 last comparison, the 184 is one of those lasts that doesn't work well for me. I find the vamp/toe of the last to be comfortable, but the heel isn't narrow enough for me. Comparatively speaking. the 137's heel and instep grips my ankle well without the toe being restrictive (but doesn't fit as well as the 184). In an ideal world, I would have the vamp/toe of the 184 but the back of 137's last.

That's exactly my problem too,
184 last with front part comfortably, snug at the the vamp, toes are comfortable (slightly compressed when bend), but the heel is less secure, regardless of the heel slippage generally the heel feel less 'locked in'.

137 (unline) with heel secured but the front part is less comfortable as the 184

Replies from EG sales: the Belgravia is slimmer at the heel compared to the Duke. The 137 last is wider, and broader than the 184 used for the Belgravia. I am not sure about the slimmer heel with 184 last.

I am ordering a pair of Hampstead in uk7 lined 137 last for comparison again. Lets me show you some more photos when it arrives!

Finally, do you think UK7 will be my choice for other lasts such as 606/202 Sharklin and dover? Thanks!
 

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

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Finally, do you think UK7 will be my choice for other lasts such as 606/202 Sharklin and dover? Thanks!
Considering you had the same experience as I did with the 137 and 184, you should be fine in a lace-up. The 202/606 is more voluminous in the forepart part of the last. I'd say that they are EG's most forgiving lasts in that area.
The heel area is also slimmer for me on both lasts. Thus, the 7 should work.

If you wanted to come down in width, the 202/606 is generous enough in the forepart that you theoretically shouldn't experience discomfort (based on what you said about the 184). Saying that and if you intend to try that, make sure you try them out at a nearby Brick and Mortar. DO NOT just buy them blindly unless you have an ironclad online return policy.
 

Sutefan

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Thank you for the reply,
Actually I cannot slide front and backward with the belgravia, the only part is the heel slipping when I exaggerate the bending. For the shoe opening, it actually hold my feet quite well

Please would you mind checking the vamp volume for me? It seams the creases are horizontal and well placed.
What's funny is that when people try on loafers they normally try to make their heel slip. Walk normally, without thinking about it, and it probably won't. The sole is stiff in the beginning, and the heel will follow your foot better when bending as it gets softer - as long as it's not too much. Worst thing you can do is to buy loafers too tight. Will end up not wearing them.
 

kalufsen

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Shoes in general are hard to get right. Had Piccadilly and Dover on 606, both fit great/fine except too much excess across the vamp which caused big issues with my big toe when flexing. Sold both unfortunately.

Decided to give it a shot with half a size down which works better with less excess across the vamp and therefore no longer issues with the big toe when flexing but its fairly tight in all areas. I have had both shoes (Belgravia and Dover 202) at the cobblers to be stretched and they work much better now but its risky, found both shoes on discount which is most likely why I gambled. As long as your toes doesn't touch the front you should be good, I rather have a shoe too tight and have it stretched then the other way around.

If i were to visit UK and have the change to try on my size in a smaller width (D) it would most likely be a better fit of the rack.

As you can tell, I really like the Dover model and 184 last from EG but wouldn't suggest anyone go through the same journey as me as it can be quite pricey, but I am happy with the results now.
 

Tutu

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Thank you.
In an ideal world, Should the lacing on a dover tighly close? Parallel to each other or slighly tapered?
If the are tightly close, will sizing down a width helps?

As in Oxford, we should leave 5-6mm between.

right photo from shoe of Stefan. 🙏🏿
 

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Sutefan

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Thank you.
In an ideal world, Should the lacing on a dover tighly close? Parallel to each other or slighly tapered?
If the are tightly close, will sizing down a width helps?

As in Oxford, we should leave 5-6mm between.
Right one is mine.
I believe in using my laces to tighten the shoes as much as possible without causing discomfort. In an optimal world they'd be parallel. But feet are different, and nothing in this world is optimal.
:cheers:
 

stook1

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]As long as your toes doesn't touch the front you should be good, I rather have a shoe too tight and have it stretched then the other way around.
Respectfully, I don't think this is a good way to go. You really want your shoes to fit comfortably out of the box. Toe positioning isn't really important as far as fit. Rather, the focus -- at least as far as the length -- should be aligning the ball of your foot at it's widest point with the widest point of the shoe's vamp. This will ensure that the flex point is correct. Some shoes are designed for an elongated toe, while in others you're meant to have minimal room beyond the toe.

Over the years, I've been as guilty as anyone as far as trying to make a good deal work out in terms of fit. It usually doesn't end up working out and it's not a good deal if you don't wear the shoe because it doesn't fit properly. If I had a preference between too tight and too loose, I would generally prefer the looser fit. Wearing shoes that are too small isn't good for your feet, whereas if necessary you can fill up some extra space in the shoe with some combination of thicker socks, half insoles, and other similar hacks. I've had less success with stretching, although it can be useful in specific circumstances.
 

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

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Respectfully, I don't think this is a good way to go. You really want your shoes to fit comfortably out of the box. Toe positioning isn't really important as far as fit. Rather, the focus -- at least as far as the length -- should be aligning the ball of your foot at it's widest point with the widest point of the shoe's vamp. This will ensure that the flex point is correct. Some shoes are designed for an elongated toe, while in others you're meant to have minimal room beyond the toe.

Over the years, I've been as guilty as anyone as far as trying to make a good deal work out in terms of fit. It usually doesn't end up working out and it's not a good deal if you don't wear the shoe because it doesn't fit properly. If I had a preference between too tight and too loose, I would generally prefer the looser fit. Wearing shoes that are too small isn't good for your feet, whereas if necessary you can fill up some extra space in the shoe with some combination of thicker socks, half insoles, and other similar hacks. I've had less success with stretching, although it can be useful in specific circumstances.
Respectfully now from me, I disagree with selecting a looser fit.
Here's why:
A looser fit isn't healthy for the majority of individuals. The exception being those with severe foot issues which should opt for a looser fit, then again they may just go Bespoke. A loose fit causes the wearer's foot to slide within the shoe. This deteriorates then inevitably break downs the structure of the shoe. That structure is the primary contributing factor that supports the foot, which is what the shoe was designed to do. No structure ultimately ruins the integrity of the foot (i.e foot & ankle problems). Lastly, a loose fit is what leads to untimely and excessive wear making the shoe look less than aesthetically pleasing. The addition of insoles, padding, etc can warp the last over time.

A tighter fit supports the foot better whilst maintaining the integrity of the shoe. This is not to say the fit should be super tight either. You should have movement of the toes (as much as possible anyways) without cramping which if you don't that's when you can expect hammer toes, ingrown toe nails, bunions, etc etc to develop. A nicely fitted shoe provides that arch support, ankle support, and as you said the ball of your foot should align with the shoes' ball and point of flexion. I do also agree it is never a good idea to wear ill-fitting shoes whether they are too big or too small.
 
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Sutefan

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Respectfully now from me, I disagree with selecting a looser fit.
Here's why:
A looser fit isn't healthy for the majority of individuals. The exception being those with severe foot issues which should opt for a looser fit, then again they may just go Bespoke. A loose fit causes the wearer's foot to slide within the shoe. This deteriorates then inevitably break downs the structure of the shoe. That structure is the primary contributing factor that supports the foot, which is what the shoe was designed to do. No structure ultimately ruins the integrity of the foot (i.e foot & ankle problems). Lastly, a loose fit is what leads to untimely and excessive wear making the shoe look less than aesthetically pleasing. The addition of insoles, padding, etc can warp the last over time.

A tighter fit supports the foot better whilst maintaining the integrity of the shoe. This is not to say the fit should be super tight either. You should have movement of the toes (as much as possible anyways) which if you don't that's when you can expect hammer toes, ingrown toe nails, bunions, etc etc to develop. A nicely fitted shoe provides that arch support, ankle support, and as you said the ball of your foot should align with the shoes' ball and point of flexion. I do also agree it is never a good idea to wear ill-fitting shoes whether they are too big or too small.
I'm on the other side :cool:
Of course, the best fit is the right fit. What was discussed though, was choosing a shoe that is outright too tight and stretching it to fit, or a slightly looser one.
If you need to stretch a shoe for it to fit, it's not the right fit in the first place. To my experience, a looser fit doesn't necessarily mean that the feet will slide around in them.
A shoe may very well sit close to the foot, but if it's close to the foot at the wrong places, it will be uncomfortable and probably stay that way.

In the end, I reckon it comes down to your personal experiences, and I've had mine. I'll pick a slightly roomier shoe over a slightly tight shoe any day. Have not seen and don't think I will ever see ankle or foot problems caused by that.

The good thing though, is that from the best makers there are various lasts and widths available, which means that for most it will be possible to find well-fitting shoes. :inlove:
 

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

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I'm on the other side :cool:
Of course, the best fit is the right fit. What was discussed though, was choosing a shoe that is outright too tight and stretching it to fit, or a slightly looser one.
If you need to stretch a shoe for it to fit, it's not the right fit in the first place. To my experience, a looser fit doesn't necessarily mean that the feet will slide around in them.
A shoe may very well sit close to the foot, but if it's close to the foot at the wrong places, it will be uncomfortable and probably stay that way.

In the end, I reckon it comes down to your personal experiences, and I've had mine. I'll pick a slightly roomier shoe over a slightly tight shoe any day. Have not seen and don't think I will ever see ankle or foot problems caused by that.

The good thing though, is that from the best makers there are various lasts and widths available, which means that for most it will be possible to find well-fitting shoes. :inlove:
While slight variations in desired fit is personal, what should be agreed upon is, as you said, the right fit. Now, I'm sure the definition of a "right fit" will also cause debate so I'm sure opinions will vary across the thread.

For my purposes, I'd never select a roomier fit because I prefer that wet suit feel from behind the ball of foot to the heel. I would never be able to achieve that with a larger fit (even slightly roomy).
Incidentally, I like the wet suit feel from behind the ball of the foot to the heel BUT free and easy from the ball to the toes.

-- What was discussed though, was choosing a shoe that is outright too tight and stretching it to fit, or a slightly looser one --

Really? I thought the discussion was slightly tight versus slightly loose. It doesn't seem fair for the opposing groups to be separated by an extreme on one end (too tight) compared to a moderate preference (mildly loose).
 

JustPullHarder

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I'm between sizes for EG being between a 9.0 and a 9.5. I find that the 9.0 is a better fit; it might be personal preference but I think a shoe should fit as close to the foot as possible (without constricting the foot or making the foot bend in ways that it naturally does not want to).
 

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

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I'm between sizes for EG being between a 9.0 and a 9.5. I find that the 9.0 is a better fit; it might be personal preference but I think a shoe should fit as close to the foot as possible (without constricting the foot or making the foot bend in ways that it naturally does not want to).
Well that's a vote for the good guys. 👍
I'll call the good guys the tighties, while let's call the bad guys the loosies.
 

stook1

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While slight variations in desired fit is personal, what should be agreed upon is, as you said, the right fit. Now, I'm sure the definition of a "right fit" will also cause debate so I'm sure opinions will vary across the thread.

For my purposes, I'd never select a roomier fit because I prefer that wet suit feel from behind the ball of foot to the heel. I would never be able to achieve that with a larger fit (even slightly roomy).
Incidentally, I like the wet suit feel from behind the ball of the foot to the heel BUT free and easy from the ball to the toes.

-- What was discussed though, was choosing a shoe that is outright too tight and stretching it to fit, or a slightly looser one --

Really? I thought the discussion was slightly tight versus slightly loose. It doesn't seem fair for the opposing groups to be separated by an extreme on one end (too tight) compared to a moderate preference (mildly loose).
Yah, I hear you... I don't think the 3 of us are really disagreeing here as much as it seems. I'm not advocating for an excessively loose, ill fitting shoe. [ETA: 🤣 I do also agree that a close fit is good. Close is not too small if we want to get pedantic about it.]. The poster that I'd reacted to for various reasons gave the impression that his shoes were perhaps significantly too small and he was sticking with them and stretching them because they were a good deal.

There isn't really a way to make a shoe fit that is simply too small. Yes, you can stretch the uppers a little but I've not found that to be a great solution generally. To be quite honest with you, I think it's really the "right" solution for someone that has a bunion or something and needs to take a little pressure off of one small spot. It's not worked out that well for me when I have tried it with shoes that were just flat out too small.

I totally agree that a shoe that's so big that your foot is sloshing around is not at all good. However, I'd rather be using thin and/or half inserts or tongue pads or even just thicker socks on a shoe that has a bit too much volume if given the choice between that and a shoe that's too small.
 

BColl_Has_Too_Many_Shoes

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Yah, I hear you... I don't think the 3 of us are really disagreeing here as much as it seems. I'm not advocating for an excessively loose, ill fitting shoe. [ETA: 🤣 I do also agree that a close fit is good. Close is not too small if we want to get pedantic about it.]. The poster that I'd reacted to for various reasons gave the impression that his shoes were perhaps significantly too small and he was sticking with them and stretching them because they were a good deal.

There isn't really a way to make a shoe fit that is simply too small. Yes, you can stretch the uppers a little but I've not found that to be a great solution generally. To be quite honest with you, I think it's really the "right" solution for someone that has a bunion or something and needs to take a little pressure off of one small spot. It's not worked out that well for me when I have tried it with shoes that were just flat out too small.

I totally agree that a shoe that's so big that your foot is sloshing around is not at all good. However, I'd rather be using thin and/or half inserts or tongue pads or even just thicker socks on a shoe that has a bit too much volume if given the choice between that and a shoe that's too small.
I am on several threads so I may be conflating thoughts and sentiments, but I thought the conversation was concerning shoe trees fitting tightly not shoes.
If @Tutu was who you were referring to, he had a query about heel slippage (so a larger fit).

I suppose I'd consider a close fit as fitted (not tight). Defining it further, feeling the shoe across the entirety of the foot would be fitted. No cramping. No pinching. Fitted without discomfort but not so comfortable that it wouldn't require the leather to be broken in.
 
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kalufsen

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Sorry for causing a debate :) Like I mentioned, it was a gamble that worked out for me. After the stretch I have no pressure points and a comfortable shoe that fit well, snug heel and free moving toes.

We are only talking about going down half a size folks which usually equates to 0.4mm in length.
 

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