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Professor Χάος

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I remember reading about a poll conducted on SF several years ago, and if I'm not mistaken, a majority preferred EG to JL.
 

George Red

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Ok, but I'm definitely no expert. EGs seem to be more sturdy in their construction. Perhaps its an unfair comparison, because my EGs are double soled, while I haven't seen JLs that are similar. I am not comparing EG to JL St James St, but rather to Hermes. Also, the leather on my JLs seems thinner and more delicate in comparison to EG leather, which is not necessarily a matter of leather quality, but rather the artisan's approach to shoe construction.

I took some of my JLs and EGs to a friend who works in an upper scale clothing store and he examined them and put them on the table, and tested them for balance. The EGs laid flat, while the JLs wobbled a little. Again, I am no expert, but the EGs seemed to be more stable in their center of gravity.

Both shoes are comfortable and obviously high quality. In terms of style, JLs are more fashion-forward, which is appealing to me, while EG is more traditional and focuses on presenting beautiful patinas.
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
 

sforum1

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Ok, but I'm definitely no expert. EGs seem to be more sturdy in their construction. Perhaps its an unfair comparison, because my EGs are double soled, while I haven't seen JLs that are similar. I am not comparing EG to JL St James St, but rather to Hermes. Also, the leather on my JLs seems thinner and more delicate in comparison to EG leather, which is not necessarily a matter of leather quality, but rather the artisan's approach to shoe construction.

I took some of my JLs and EGs to a friend who works in an upper scale clothing store and he examined them and put them on the table, and tested them for balance. The EGs laid flat, while the JLs wobbled a little. Again, I am no expert, but the EGs seemed to be more stable in their center of gravity.

Both shoes are comfortable and obviously high quality. In terms of style, JLs are more fashion-forward, which is appealing to me, while EG is more traditional and focuses on presenting beautiful patinas.
Center of gravity? You sure you are not mixing up shoes and cars?
 

dukenukem4ever

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I don’t think your question is disrespectful at all. It’s candid and fair. Here’s my answer:

1) EG, JL, and especially STC absolutely feel much better when worn than your run of the mill shit captoe oxford. The fit is superior and they stay that way forever.

2) Any EG, JL, or STC looks much better than your run of the mill shit captoe oxford, even to the layman. I mean, just look at this, for fuck’s sake:
View attachment 1506484View attachment 1506485View attachment 1506486View attachment 1506487
are you selling stuff on Japanese mercari?
 

Professor Χάος

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You have no idea what you’re talking about.
I never claimed to have deep knowledge of either brand, their methods of construction, or shoe-making in general. I was simply expressing my opinion. I would appreciate some elaboration regarding your views. After all, this forum exists for us to exchange views and to learn from each other. So....please explain further.
 

Professor Χάος

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Center of gravity? You sure you are not mixing up shoes and cars?
All objects with mass in an inertial frame have a center of gravity (CoG), which is the unique point where the weighted relative position of the distributed mass sums to zero. For instance, the CoG for a typical human body lies approximately anterior to the second sacral vertebra. I may be wrong or right about my observation regarding JL shoes, but they have a center of gravity like all other objects.

I'll admit that my observation is based on a small sample and can therefore be challenged on that basis alone, but from what I've seen, JL shoes may be less stable kinematically than EGs. To draw a more empirically defensible inference, I would have to take a larger sample (100-1000) of each brand to the lab and conduct stability tests. The simplest way to determine the CoG of an object is to use a fixed platform connected to 3 load cells. The weighted average of each load cell reading would then give us the location of the center of gravity. Determining a shoe's "stability" is more complex, but initially we can perturb an object and measure its displacement using a small tilt table/angle meter and perhaps a force gauge. Finally in order to measure the shoe's stability during normal human gait, we could employ an Isokinetic dynamometer and conduct AHRS analysis using some volunteers, and then examine the data. But we're just exchanging opinions, and not conducting serious research. N'est-ce pas?
 
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sforum1

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All objects with mass in an inertial frame have a center of gravity (CoG), which is the unique point where the weighted relative position of the distributed mass sums to zero. For instance, the CoG for a typical human body lies approximately anterior to the second sacral vertebra. I may be wrong or right about my observation regarding JL shoes, but they have a center of gravity like all other objects.

I'll admit that my observation is based on a small sample and can therefore be challenged on that basis alone, but from what I've seen, JL shoes may be less stable kinematically than EGs. To draw a more empirically defensible inference, I would have to take a larger sample (100-1000) of each brand to the lab and conduct stability tests. The simplest way to determine the CoG of an object is to use a fixed platform connected to 3 load cells. The weighted average of each load cell reading would then give us the location of the center of gravity. Determining a shoe's "stability" is more complex, but initially we can perturb an object and measure its displacement using a small tilt table/angle meter and perhaps a force gauge. Finally in order to measure the shoe's stability during normal human gait, we could employ an Isokinetic dynamometer and conduct AHRS analysis using some volunteers, and then examine the data. But we're just exchanging opinions, and not conducting serious research. N'est-ce pas?
Tell all that to Cleverley. These guys definitely failed that Physics class that your clothes guy at the retail shop (and you, I presume?) took and aced:

 
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Professor Χάος

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Tell all that to Cleverley. These guys definitely failed that Physics class that your clothes guy at the retail shop (and you, I presume?) took and aced:

That's fascinating sforum1. I've never seen anything like that. Thanks for the reference.
That twisted last must be exceptionally flexible, to flatten out when its worn.
My salesmen friend knows little about physics. He simply brought this issue to my attention.

Without using lab instruments, we can assess comparative shoe stability using some basic metrics (which given sform1's video may possibly be defied by some ingenious shoe craftsmen).

First, examine your EGs and JLs, hopefully representing a number of lasts from each maker. Now measure the narrowest part of the waist and the widest part of the ball of the sole. Let w = the waist (the narrowest part) of the sole and b = widest part of the sole (where the ball of the foot will lie). Now calculate the ratio: w / b. That's your waist-to-ball of the foot ratio. The closer w/b is to 1, the more evenly distributed will be plantar force exerted on your foot's sole when you take a step, and so the more stable your gait should be when you walk. I believe that for most lasts, you will find the EG w/b ratio is generally closer to 1 compared to JLs.

More specifically, we can actually measure how much pressure is exerted when we walk. Let p = f /a (pressure = force / area). However, because of the irregular shape of the shoe's sole, we have to adjust our calculations accordingly. We need a better measure of the distribution of the plantar force that's exerted when we walk. Let x = (1 - w / b). Given our specification: 0 < x < 1. We can now alter our original equation for pressure thusly: Pressure = (f / a)^x, and as long as x < 1, that should give us a nice decimal root function that is easy to measure and interpret. Therefore, as w/b approaches 1, x approaches 0, and the lower the value of p. A lower p means a reduction in the plantar pressure that's exerted on a specific area of our foot as we walk and the more evenly this pressure should be distributed.

In other words, that beautiful fiddle back waist that we all appreciate, is likely to cause our gait to be less dynamically stable compared to shoes that have wider waists.

Second, we can examine the aspect ratio of the sole relative to the ground, as well as the angle between the ground and highest point of the waist. Again, all things being equal, the greater that angle, the greater the disparity between our sole axis relative to our ankle angle, leading once again to a less stable gait, which is one of the reasons why women in 6 inch pumps have such a hard time walking. Now examine your EGs and JLs. I think you will find the JLs have a greater angle between the ground and waist, which will put greater upward pressure on the medial and lateral arches of the foot. Based on this basic analysis, walking in EGs should exert less plantar pressure on the posteroinferior tuberosity of the calcaneous (the back of the sole), which absorbs most of the pressure exerted when we walk, as well as reducing the pressure upon the 1st and 5th metatarsals at the front of the foot.

In conclusion, there are physical and biokinematic reasons (there are 33 joints in the foot) for my hypothesis that EGs may in fact be more dynamically stable than JLs, but I would have to conduct measurements and systematic analysis of a large sample from each brand to examine this hypothesis to an acceptable level of rigor.
 

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