Drape tutorial?

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by AscotMcPocketsquare, Feb 20, 2009.

  1. Concordia

    Concordia Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Wait, how can that be Whife with all that waist? I though Whife drape = sack, which has no waist. [​IMG]


    He bought it so he could look larger than he is. Or so he could be free to be fat/American. Or something.
     


  2. Concordia

    Concordia Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Anyway, it's a great-looking jacket. Especially if you ignore the first-draft-ness below the waist.
     


  3. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Lest it get lost in the chatter, you look good in the experiment, and would look even better if you could tweak away its historical oddities.

    And, your ability to execute this so well on yourself...which has got to be tougher than doing it for someone else...is admirable.

    Thank you for letting me shanghai you into this thread.


    - B


    Anyway, it's a great-looking jacket. Especially if you ignore the first-draft-ness below the waist.

    Guess who's buying the steaks in Boston, Jeffery.
     


  4. jefferyd

    jefferyd Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Anyway, it's a great-looking jacket. Especially if you ignore the first-draft-ness below the waist.

    Thank you. Besides, it's supposed to take me 3 times to get it right, no?

    Guess who's buying the steaks in Boston, Jeffery.

    I was wondering where all this unusual bonhomie was coming from.
     


  5. Sator

    Sator Senior member

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    No. I'll repeat myself. Again [​IMG]

    Whife gave several options. Some for shapeless, some for shapely. This is shapely. Another thing is the width of the sleeve- Whife gave no sleeve draft so I used my own method which is rather trim and accentuates the waistiness- a full sleeve would have camouflaged it a bit.

    Both buttons are too low. Blame that on Whife too.


    I too will repeat myself. Whife never uses the term "sack" or "sacky" - ever. His default pattern for a drape cut shows a coat that is cut easier in the waist.

    It also vindicates my view that Whife is one of the most authoritative cutters to have published in the 20th century. Some may even say the most authoritative.

    He also shows you way of manipulating the drape pattern to make it more like a Rubinacci, by taking the side seam up into the armscye, and deepening the front darts extended down to the base of the skirt. This makes the chest even look fuller, the waist and skirt narrower.
     


  6. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    And, your ability to execute this so well on yourself...which has got to be tougher than doing it for someone else...is admirable.

    Especially on a first try. On a style that you don't even like. Just to be clear, all my quibble are just quibbles. I would order that from you in a heartbeat, and wear it with pride.
     


  7. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    I too will repeat myself. Whife never uses the term "sack" or "sacky" - ever. His default pattern for a drape cut shows a coat that is cut easier in the waist.

    It also vindicates my view that Whife is one of the most authoritative cutters to have published in the 20th century. Some may even say the most authoritative.

    He also shows you way of manipulating the drape pattern to make it more like a Rubinacci, by taking the side seam up into the armscye, and deepening the front darts extended down to the base of the skirt. This makes the chest even look fuller, the waist and skirt narrower.


    Ah, OK, so Whife is not wrong, Sator is wrong when he says drape = BB sack. Thanks for clearing that up!
     


  8. jefferyd

    jefferyd Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Oh, Alden would be gloating right now. Too bad for him he chose to shut down that hotbed of dissent when he did. [​IMG]
     


  9. Sator

    Sator Senior member

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    Ah, OK, so Whife is not wrong, Sator is wrong when he says drape = BB sack. Thanks for clearing that up!
    No, I never said that. I said that the older American English term for a lounge coat is a "sack coat" - whether it is draped, close fitting, with or without a front dart. All of the American cutting texts before about 1950 use the term "sack coat" as a generic term for a lounge coat. I also stated that the term "sac coat" is the older British English term for what was later usually called a "lounge coat". That is, "sac coat" is an older British English term for "lounge coat" just as "cutaway" is the older British English term for a "morning coat". Never once did I bring up Brooks Brothers.
     


  10. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    Sator, you have said over and over -- here, on LL, on AA, on FNB -- that we who like drape are idiots who don't undestand what it is. Drape = too big = sack = American. You have said that my book is wrong when I define drape as full chest, nipped waist, trim hip. Now jeffery makes exactly that coat, and you say this is what you meant by drape all along. Forgive me if I conclude that I have caught you in an inconsistency.
     


  11. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Pardon the interruption, but would the hip on Jeffrey's coat be called trim? I would not have thought so. I would have thought a trim hip would be more columnar, though perhaps I am misunderstanding the term.

    Let me make clear I'm not attempting to wade into the dispute over the definition of drape. Perhaps this is a bad point to place this post, but there we go.
     


  12. Sator

    Sator Senior member

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    No, what I have said over and over again is that the "drape cut sack coat" ("sack coat" being just a generic traditional American English term for a lounge coat) as described in Regal's American Garment Cutter (1933) and Apparel Art reflects a classical American taste, highly characteristic of the old American school of "custom" tailoring.

    I have, and will insist - a thousand times over - that I have never meant this to be in any way pejorative or insulting to anyone. Over and over, I have offered to take back and apologise if you can find anything I have written, which is in any way demeaning towards the classical American school.

    Admittedly, my taste is for a more structured English/Italian style. At least, at the moment. However, I have always found all ideas from all schools of tailoring to be interesting. Never would I have suggested to Jeffreyd that he try Whife's published thoughts on the drape cut, if I didn't.
     


  13. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    Pardon the interruption, but would the hip on Jeffrey's coat be called trim? I would not have thought so. I would have thought a trim hip would be more columnar, though perhaps I am misunderstanding the term.

    Let me make clear I'm not attempting to wade into the dispute over the definition of drape. Perhaps this is a bad point to place this post, but there we go.


    I guess it's possible that he is built like a twig, but it looks trim to me -- definitely narrower than the chest, which is not the case with a true sack.

    To me, the best drape coats have cupped skirts.
     


  14. Sator

    Sator Senior member

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    Sator, you have said over and over -- here, on LL, on AA, on FNB -- that we who like drape are idiots who don't undestand what it is. Drape = too big = sack = American. You have said that my book is wrong when I define drape as full chest, nipped waist, trim hip. Now jeffery makes exactly that coat, and you say this is what you meant by drape all along. Forgive me if I conclude that I have caught you in an inconsistency.

    BTW I think you will find that it is others who are saying most of that you have paraphrased. As for Whife, as Jeffreyd has repeatedly pointed out, his default pattern for the drape cut shows a waist which is fuller. That is to say, it is not possible to say that drape cut coats have, by definition, a nipped waist. However, I agree it is possible to have a drape cut coat with a narrower waist, but it is not an essential characteristic of the drape cut. Usually, both the trousers and the coat overall have greater ease of fit.

    As for the "sack coat" I have all along used it as a generic American English term for a lounge coat. Used in this way, it does not imply a particular cut or silhouette.
     


  15. DocHolliday

    DocHolliday Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I guess it's possible that he is built like a twig, but it looks trim to me -- definitely narrower than the chest, which is not the case with a true sack.

    To me, the best drape coats have cupped skirts.


    Maybe it is because I am built like a twig, but I would have thought that significant waist suppression would require some fullness to the hip. If I wanted, I could wear a very slim sack that made me look like a column -- no flare at all.

    Perhaps trim in this case is a relative term?
     


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