Double Breasted Style.

[Despos]

Do you think a tailor has more incentive to pay close attention to the mistakes you're pointing out if he charged a higher price for his services?

That’s a matter of conscience

 

[driving glove]

That’s a matter of conscience

I think that services can be driven down in cost to the point where even a principled provider literally cannot take the time to “make it right”, out of economic necessity. Above that point, personal values and attitude toward work kick in (or don’t).

 

[lordsuperb]

Lol. Some of the best tailors in the world in that city, and that's your take? They are carefree thus their work is sloppy?

Maybe its just a bad sample set that have shaped my opinion. I love my Neapolitan jackets but they still have problems after making multiple orders. I've also received numerous emails from posters complaining about the tailors they've used from the area. I have no desire to test out multiple tailors from naples so I'll be sticking with my perfect imperfections. My jackets from my tailor make me happy and I enjoy seeing him when he comes state side.

@lordsuperb

Did you get one of the Neapolitan T-shirts or the hoodie that reads

“The defect is the effect”

Naples was a blast but i travel light and didn't have room for extra baggage.

18 days worth of clothing in two bags.

 

[ChasingStyle]

Maybe its just a bad sample set that have shaped my opinion. I love my Neapolitan jackets but they still have problems after making multiple orders. I've also received numerous emails from posters complaining about the tailors they've used from the area. I have no desire to test out multiple tailors from naples so I'll be sticking with my perfect imperfections. My jackets from my tailor make me happy and I enjoy seeing him when he comes state side.

Probably a bad/biased sample set indeed.

 

[lordsuperb]

I would expect a DB to be a bit shorter, but I find that jacket more flattering to Simon than most others.

The DB jackets he commissions have always been spot on. It's the single breasted jackets that are off in my eye.

 

[9thsymph]

but then again, if you wanted a shorter jacket, you wouldn't go to Sexton...

Well, yes and no. I mean, I do think the length looks good on Simon. It might not look as good on me (and Sexton may, or may not agree...I've never used him). I've been pretty surprised by just how fluid tailors are in regard to jacket length in relation to the customer's proportions, regardless of their house/regional style.

Some tailors seem to have more rigid metrics for deciding jacket length, while others less so. I have English (stereotypically long) jackets that appear too short, even though they are actually longer than Italian (stereotypically short) jackets that appear too long...Proportions are more than just simply cutting the length 50/50 from feet to shoulders, or where the jacket hits your knuckles, or how much it covers your seat....

It's also been my experience that the angle of perspective is super important, and that gets very distorted in photos. For example, I'm on the shorter end of the spectrum. That means the majority of men that see my jackets (in person), will view my jacket length from a slightly downward, diagonal angle, making it appear longer than it is. Conversely, when I encounter men my own height, or shorter, the will see my jacket from a different angle, making it appear shorter. I have tended to notice that shorter tailors cut me longer jackets and taller tailors cut me shorter jackets...I believe this is also possibly due to taller tailors attempting to make me look taller (like them) and shorter tailors sticking more to body cues like knuckles, seat, etc...

Lastly, how one wears their trousers seems rather important to jacket length. How high is the rise and how high they wear the crotch in relation to the waistband...my own jackets greatly change in appearance relative to how I wear my trousers...

 

[Despos]

Well, yes and no. I mean, I do think the length looks good on Simon. It might not look as good on me (and Sexton may, or may not agree...I've never used him). I've been pretty surprised by just how fluid tailors are in regard to jacket length in relation to the customer's proportions, regardless of their house/regional style.

Some tailors seem to have more rigid metrics for deciding jacket length, while others less so. I have English (stereotypically long) jackets that appear too short, even though they are actually longer than Italian (stereotypically short) jackets that appear too long...Proportions are more than just simply cutting the length 50/50 from feet to shoulders, or where the jacket hits your knuckles, or how much it covers your seat....

It's also been my experience that the angle of perspective is super important, and that gets very distorted in photos. For example, I'm on the shorter end of the spectrum. That means the majority of men that see my jackets (in person), will view my jacket length from a slightly downward, diagonal angle, making it appear longer than it is. Conversely, when I encounter men my own height, or shorter, the will see my jacket from a different angle, making it appear shorter. I have tended to notice that shorter tailors cut me longer jackets and taller tailors cut me shorter jackets...I believe this is also possibly due to taller tailors attempting to make me look taller (like them) and shorter tailors sticking more to body cues like knuckles, seat, etc...

@9thsymph
So if you are deciding on a tailor to use do you first ask their height?

 

[9thsymph]

So if you are deciding on a tailor to use do you first ask their height?

Haha. No. I find all the different perspectives interesting. And I like wearing different things. I've never been about finding the "perfect" anything. Variety is the spice of life?

 

[yanagi]

Maybe its just a bad sample set that have shaped my opinion. I love my Neapolitan jackets but they still have problems after making multiple orders. I've also received numerous emails from posters complaining about the tailors they've used from the area. I have no desire to test out multiple tailors from naples so I'll be sticking with my perfect imperfections. My jackets from my tailor make me happy and I enjoy seeing him when he comes state side.

I agree with @ChasingStyle that it's too strong to conclude something like, they are carefree thus their work is sloppy. I am not yet at the 11th level of relationship with either of the 2 Neapolitan (traveling) tailors I've worked with, but I found both to be diligent and passionate about their craft. For example, with 1 of them, he mentioned during the first fitting that the balance was off and asked me whether I wanted a second fitting or the jacket straight away.

Having said that, as a non-Neapolitan outsider, I think there is some truth to "their work is sloppy," but it depends on both the tailor and the client. If you watch O'Mast, there is a sense that Neapolitan tailors don't like clients who they perceive as ignorant. So for these clients, their attitude may be, "you can't tell what's good or bad, so I don't have to do my best."

 

[ChasingStyle]

Having said that, as a non-Neapolitan outsider, I think there is some truth to "their work is sloppy," but it depends on both the tailor and the client. If you watch O'Mast, there is a sense that Neapolitan tailors don't like clients who they perceive as ignorant. So for these clients, their attitude may be, "you can't tell what's good or bad, so I don't have to do my best."

Tailors live off of customers who come back over and over. And who are happy enough to recommend them to others. And in the age of Instagram, off of potential customers who see their work on social networks and decide to try them. Why would someone who is running a business decide to allow sloppy work go out the door, if they can avoid it?

 

[Despos]

Have never used a formula for determining jacket length or anything else. If you do use one then the eye has to verify it is correct. If the eye is the final arbiter then I cut out the middle man (the formula) and just use my eye. Formulas can get you to the ball park but shouldn’t overrule what you see.

Another formula is dividing your height into head lengths. Your height can be divided into 8th’s. The average height of your head is 8”. If you are 5’8” tall - 68”, subtract one head length or 8” and you have 60”. Divide by 2 and subtract 1”.
29” is your jacket length. This is from an old design book.

After visually establishing the jacket length I look for a marker to use for consistency. Usually on the thumb from the tip to the knuckle. Always use the same hand as one arm may be different than the other. That’s only to confirm the length and not used to establish the correct length.

 

[yanagi]

Tailors live off of customers who come back over and over. And who are happy enough to recommend them to others. And in the age of Instagram, off of potential customers who see their work on social networks and decide to try them. Why would someone who is running a business decide to allow sloppy work go out the door, if they can avoid it?

I want to caution again that what I said and what you quoted is very situational. I did not say that every Neapolitan tailor treats every customer that way.

Nonetheless, to answer your question, "sloppy" in the eyes of whom? @Despos and other tailors can spot things that most of us can't. Take Jeffrey's dissection of a Neapolitan suit in 2015:

Menefreghismo

I struggle to understand this garment. I truly do. Voxsartoria sent me a suit that he had acquired from the original owner. The coat was...

tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com

Menefreghismo, part 2- The Guts

If you missed the previous post about the mystery disaster suit , go back and start there. This week we look a bit at the cut and the insid...

tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com

If a suit like that were posted on Instagram, how many of us could spot the external flaws (e.g. mismatched back of collar, mismatched pocket flaps)?

And in the case of the client, he may not have cared about the external flaws at all because Jeffrey ultimately concludes that the suit jacket was likely to have been "very comfortable" to wear. If I'm not mistaken, the client liked the suit so much he became a repeat customer!

So if you allow sloppy work to go out the door, and the client not only doesn't complain but also comes back for more, well...that's the answer to your question.

As a final clarification, I want to stress that I'm not saying this one tailor represents all of Naples, or that the suit in question represents the tailor's current work. Also, despite the apparent utter lack of care to the outward details of the suit, Jeffrey nevertheless praises the tailor for the extensive "consideration given to the internal construction." So the tailor took pride in the parts that the client couldn't see, but gave no ***** about the parts that the client could see but didn't know any better to judge good from bad.

 

[lordsuperb]

 

[lordsuperb]

 

[acapaca]

Have never used a formula for determining jacket length or anything else. If you do use one then the eye has to verify it is correct. If the eye is the final arbiter then I cut out the middle man (the formula) and just use my eye. Formulas can get you to the ball park but shouldn’t overrule what you see.

Another formula is dividing your height into head lengths. Your height can be divided into 8th’s. The average height of your head is 8”. If you are 5’8” tall - 68”, subtract one head length or 8” and you have 60”. Divide by 2 and subtract 1”.
29” is your jacket length. This is from an old design book.

After visually establishing the jacket length I look for a marker to use for consistency. Usually on the thumb from the tip to the knuckle. Always use the same hand as one arm may be different than the other. That’s only to confirm the length and not used to establish the correct length.

This is fascinating to me! And it has me wondering, though I'm not sure if you'd be able to quantify it, what it is that your eye is looking for. In other words, why would one person be better with, say, a jacket that fully covered the seat but another better with something different. Or are there just too many variables invovled?