Dormeuil Amadeus vs. H&S Target 10-11 oz

[Despos]

Originally Posted by Roger

Morsem, are you looking for pure worsteds or, perhaps, worsted flannels as well? I've bought worsted flannels from the H&S Viceroy book in 11/12 oz. To my eye and touch, they are better than the Scabal 120s worsted flannel. Whoopee, the Lumb's Golden Bale is a worsted flannel, if I remember correctly. I think that Morsem has to decide between worsted and worsted flannel before nailing this down.

Do you mean to compare worsted and woollen flannels?

FCS,
I am not familiar with those cloths or those books. They may be new for fall. I have not received them yet.

 

[whoopee]

FCS, you make this man's heart warm. That is some seriously heavy stuff. Also look into Lesser 16, harrisons 16 oz flannels, Harrisons 15/16 - that is the largest selection of real heavy worsteds I've seen. The H&S 15/16 worsteds and 17/18 flannel (worsted) are pretty scant. Not much market for those. Perhaps light topcoating could be used, too. Generally the finish is a bit less refined though.

Roger, I don't think he's looking at flannel. The books he mentioned are not flannels.

 

[FCS]

Whoope, how's life, mate? I guess you're now in Singapore? I went to Xintiandi as you suggested - very nice strip, btw. And got some shirts from WW Chan in Shanghai as well. Was planning to made some suits but they don't carry heavy fabrics at all. Had a nice chat with Peter Chan too, he sounds really bullish on the city and mentioned that the shop at Maoming Lu had more businesses than all of his other shops, including the HK operation.

I have some H. Lesser swatches and I'll go with their 18/19 oz midnight blue worsted - the only one available in this weight - once I get more experience with my tailor (and vice versa). Awesome stuff, I must say. Sad to hear that heavy-weights are less and less favoured these days. Let's hope that Lesser will still make / have those 19oz in our lifetime.

Also bought some 500 gram 30/70 mohair / wool on discount recently. No selvage but I was told that they are made by Foster.

 

[morsem]

Gentleman,

This is tremendous advice, wow what a wealth of info.

Let me respond to some of the questions and you might be able to help me more.

First, I know of worsteds and flannels, I have never heard of a worsted flannel before, are they some hybrid of the two?

While I enjoy flannels, I am not interested in them right now. I live in DC, and I had thought that 10/11 ounce was pretty heavy. Is a 14-17 ounce cloth wearable anytime other than winter? I have noticed that my body gets used to the clothes I wear, so I bet that I would sweat for a week or so, but then I would feel cold wearing anything lighter. This is my experience.

As far as cost goes, are these fabrics typically similarly priced? I imagine that none of them go for "premium" prices like a 100% cashmere. They should all be comparable, or am I wrong?

As far as designs go, most of the books are pretty comprehensive, and as I am building my wardrobe right now, I am mainly looking at basics like solids and normal patterns.

You gentlement are awesome, and I appreciate your guidance.

 

[rnoldh]

Originally Posted by FCS

Gotta agree with the above, 10/11 oz is fairly light. Having tried heavy cloths, I don't think I would go back to anything below 14oz.

I picked these 15/16 oz pinstripe worsteds from H&S:
http://www.hollandandsherry.com/coll...005/hs615.html

and also the 17/18 oz from Viceroy Flannels:
http://www.hollandandsherry.com/coll...003/hs319.html

I'm quite happy with the 'feel' and the drape and my tailor also gave a positive review, but haven't had any of them made into suits (work-in-progress, one suit at a time).

Mr. Despos, any comment on these fabrics?

I too agree that 10/11 oz. is fairly light. But isn't 17/18 oz. cloth particularly heavy? I'm in Houston, Tx. and that impacts my feelings, but short of an extremely colder climate town, like Anchorage, Alaska, when would 17/18 oz. fabric be remotely practical. I.E., at least 2 season useage?

Opinion, Mr Despos if you are there!

Regards and Thanks!

 

[whoopee]

FCS, finished my stint in Singapore and travelling through Asia at the moment. Glad to hear you liked that place in Shanghai; hope everything worked out well. I've never seen the 19 oz Lesser - it sounds bulletproof. Should be very useful in the Toronto winters. I'm not sure I could take it myself.

14-17 oz cloth, morsem, may be wearable past winter, depending on a lot of factors. How your body reacts to heat (I am the same as you in that my body also acclimates in a few days), how weighty the guts of the suit are (I go light on canvas, 1/2 lined, heavy-ish on cloth), how warm your shirts and undershirts are, how porous or insulating the cloth itself is. I find that flannel, for example, wears warmer than a similar weight worsted, especially those in a more open weave (like hopsack vs herringbone).

As for the definition of worsted flannel, manton wrote the best description, so i quote:

"Worsted flannel is cloth with a worsted base. That is, in the guts of the cloth, the yarns are combed out straight and woven in a parallel/perpendicular lines, giving the cloth greater density and resilience. Usually, this base is a twill weave. But not all the yarns are combed out flat and straight. Some are left to cross this way and that, and lock into place haphazardly. Plus, the cloth is not finished in the same way as a true worsted. The result is a cloth in which, if you look closely, you can see the twill weave, but the surface also has a visible nap, or fuzziness. True woolen flannel will have no combed yarns at all, and no twill (or any other regular pattern) to the weave. It will look "mottled", especially if the yarns are of varying colors (as they almost always are).

Worsted flannel will wear better, hold a crease better, resist wrinkles better, and last longer. Woolen flannel is softer and in some respects more interesting cloth. The "depth" and color variation is simply not achievable any other way. It is more of luxury, because it is not so hard-wearing and won't last as long. It is also much more rare. I can't remember the last time I saw a real woolen flannel made RTW. I think it's pretty much a bespoke-only cloth these days."

As for pricing, this depends on your source. H&S, Dormeuil, and Scabal average out to be more expensive than Lesser, Harrisons, and Smith; and in the latter subgrouping Lesser cloth tends to be a bit pricier. It is worth it in my opinion. Golden Bale pricing is closer to H&S 120s and a bit less than double standard Lesser 80s.

If you are building your wardrobe, you cannot go wrong with the Lesser basics. They are conservative, long-lived, reasonably priced, and look great. When you feel ready to indulge in some dash, look into H&S and Harrisons (cashmere). Their cloths have more verve and happier colours.

 

[FCS]

Hum, I think I got better prices from H&S retail (Beazley's) than 'comparable' H. Lesser fabrics from their US dealer. This is even after H&S bumped up their prices (might have something to do with the private equity buyouts). Should have bought those cloths a few years ago, can't believe how long I procrastinated.

 

[FCS]

Originally Posted by rnoldh

I too agree that 10/11 oz. is fairly light. But isn't 17/18 oz. cloth particularly heavy? I'm in Houston, Tx. and that impacts my feelings, but short of an extremely colder climate town, like Anchorage, Alaska, when would 17/18 oz. fabric be remotely practical. I.E., at least 2 season useage?

Opinion, Mr Despos if you are there!

Regards and Thanks!

Well, flannel is significantly more warmer and I do think it looks a bit weird to wear it in the summer. But I could still pull off that weight in normal worsted for at least a three-season use. Have to go light on the canvas though, which is my preference anyways.

And I also have this Northern winter here so I have more chance to wear them .

 

[whoopee]

Prices from the UK - and directly from the source - are generally less than those found in the US, sold by distributors. Duties and the added overhead being the main culprits.

 

[Roger]

A couple of observations on the above discussion. First, I have to agree with rnoldh in wondering why 14-17 oz. fabrics are being suggested for wear in what is basically a Southern US city. In Vancouver, which would be a little cooler than DC (although never really cold, like Toronto), no one wears anything heavier than 11/12 oz. for fall and winter garments. No one. A 17 oz. jacket or suit would just be unbearable. It's certainly true that this heavy stuff is esthetically pleasing and drapes very well, but you have to wear the stuff!

Despos, no, I wasn't proposing comparing worsted flannel with woollen flannel, but, instead, wondering whether we were all on the same page in this discussion, since Lumb's Golden Bale was being mentioned (which as far as I know is a worsted flannel), whereas Morsem had mentioned only "worsted" at the beginning.

Whoopee, is there a Lesser Golden Bale that is a pure worsted? I'm not as familiar with Lesser as with H&S.

Finally, in my price comparisons between Scabal, Harrison's, Lesser (Lumb's Golden Bale), and H&S, my best price (considering quality) was from Beazley's on H&S (Viceroy worsted flannel) at something on the order of 70 GBP per metre. I might add that dealing with Mr. Topel at Beazley's was easy and enjoyable, and samples were easily acquired.

 

[horton]

It's been my (admittedly limited) experience that Lesser was more expensive

 

[whoopee]

Originally Posted by Roger

Whoopee, is there a Lesser Golden Bale that is a pure worsted? I'm not as familiar with Lesser as with H&S.

Finally, in my price comparisons between Scabal, Harrison's, Lesser (Lumb's Golden Bale), and H&S, my best price (considering quality) was from Beazley's on H&S (Viceroy worsted flannel) at something on the order of 70 GBP per metre. I might add that dealing with Mr. Topel at Beazley's was easy and enjoyable, and samples were easily acquired.

Yes. There are a lot more worsteds than worsted flannels in Lesser Lumbs Goldne Bale.

Harrisons worsted and woolen flannels are considerably less than 70/metre if direct fomr LBD Harrisons.

 

[Despos]

Originally Posted by Roger

A couple of observations on the above discussion. First, I have to agree with rnoldh in wondering why 14-17 oz. fabrics are being suggested for wear in what is basically a Southern US city. In Vancouver, which would be a little cooler than DC (although never really cold, like Toronto), no one wears anything heavier than 11/12 oz. for fall and winter garments. No one. A 17 oz. jacket or suit would just be unbearable. It's certainly true that this heavy stuff is esthetically pleasing and drapes very well, but you have to wear the stuff!

Despos, no, I wasn't proposing comparing worsted flannel with woollen flannel, but, instead, wondering whether we were all on the same page in this discussion, since Lumb's Golden Bale was being mentioned (which as far as I know is a worsted flannel), whereas Morsem had mentioned only "worsted" at the beginning.

Whoopee, is there a Lesser Golden Bale that is a pure worsted? I'm not as familiar with Lesser as with H&S.

Finally, in my price comparisons between Scabal, Harrison's, Lesser (Lumb's Golden Bale), and H&S, my best price (considering quality) was from Beazley's on H&S (Viceroy worsted flannel) at something on the order of 70 GBP per metre. I might add that dealing with Mr. Topel at Beazley's was easy and enjoyable, and samples were easily acquired.

When I reread your post I understood you are comparing worsteds to worsted flannel.

I make 13oz flannels for clients in Texas that wear them year round. I actually have a client that only wears 13oz flannel in TX. I concur with previous statements that is up to the wearer. Some could not tolerate the weight in TX heat.

I am looking at two Lessers books. The "Golden Bale" book says worsted flannels on the cover. Another Lesser book is named "Fine worsted and woollen flannels". They hand is a bit coarse when compare to the Golden Bale. The books have a name but no book #. US prices are substatially higher than you will find in UK.

 

[FCS]

Originally Posted by whoopee

Harrisons worsted and woolen flannels are considerably less than 70/metre if direct fomr LBD Harrisons.

Whoopee, are you referring to this LBD Harrisons? They do retail orders?
http://www.lbd-harrisons.com/index2.htm

 

[whoopee]

Originally Posted by FCS

Whoopee, are you referring to this LBD Harrisons? They do retail orders?
http://www.lbd-harrisons.com/index2.htm

If you ask nicely. Penny DuBois is the export manager and exceedingly helpful.