Does Hand-made really make a suit better?

[donnghia]

Hi guys, I'm new in Satorial World

So I have seen many High-end italy brand like Attolini, Kiton, Brioni which sell their products for thoundsand of dollars because the garments are hand-finished (handmade)

So because I'm new, I just wonder does those Hand-Finished such as Button Holes, Stiching... really make a suit better and more attractive?

by better I mean:
1/ Does Hand-finished make the suit more quality overall?
2/ Does Hand-finished make the suit better-looking/better-shape/Better Drape
3/ Does Hand-finished make the suit last-longer?
4/ Does Hand-finished make the suit FEEL better than Machine-Finished

Or it just a marketing strategy mental-game that make you feel more proud that your garments is handmade by good tailor? and not really commit to be a better suit?

I'm very glad to hear from you guys. Thank You !
Many Thanks

 

[Phileas Fogg]

A proper fit and quality fabrics. Hand finishes and/or hand finishing is but one aspect.

In my opinion, at some level the qualitative differences become so marginal as to not make the additional cost worth it.

 

[donnghia]

A proper fit and quality fabrics. Hand finishes and/or hand finishing is but one aspect.

In my opinion, at some level the qualitative differences become so marginal as to not make the additional cost worth it.

Thank you

So does it mean the quality gap between top end like Brioni, Attolini, Kiton compare to mid-end such as E. Zegna, Isaia, D'avenza... is not that much and not worth it?

 

[Phileas Fogg]

Thank you

So does it mean the quality gap between top end like Brioni, Attolini, Kiton compare to mid-end such as E. Zegna, Isaia, D'avenza... is not that much and not worth it?

Your question can be taken a couple of way:
1) what is the relative cost basis for each. In other words, is there more labor involved in producing a mainline E Zegna suit vs. Brioni, Kiton, et al.

2) Is there a qualitative difference and if so, worth the extra price.

the first can be assessed via quantitative methods (labor, materials, etc). The second is a question of value to the consumer.

A mainline Zegna suit at full retail is ~$3500 depending on fabric. If you do MTM it’s another 10-20% higher, again largely depending on the fabric.

At full price, a Brioni or Kiton suit is around $5-6k. I’m sure there’s a markup for MTM as well. I don’t know if they offer a bespoke service.

Assuming just the OTR price, I’m not sure I could tell the difference between one or the other and if properly cared for and fitted, I’m not sure there would be a qualitative difference. If there were, in my opinion, I’m not sure the additional cost would be worth it. With the money saved I could get a shirt, tie, PS and some really nice shoes and put together an entire outfit ready to go.

 

[Toninno]

That question is the drip drip drip of mediocrity.

 

[dauster]

Thank you

So does it mean the quality gap between top end like Brioni, Attolini, Kiton compare to mid-end such as E. Zegna, Isaia, D'avenza... is not that much and not worth it?

I would worry more about fit & style than the marginal difference in quality if there even is a true difference. There are a couple of threads here describing the amazing handwork of Attolini but if they don't fit you than who cares if the buttonholes have amazing finishes. You already comparing the upper echelon of RTW fancy brands, the real question is shouldn't you rather get a Solito bespoke suit for that money?
But that highly depends on your personal taste and how much time you want to invest into getting fitted, where you live etc.

 

[classicalthunde]

Overall it depends on the skill of the person who is tailoring your handmade/bench-made suit vs. the factory that you are buying it from. I would almost certainly pick a partially machine-made suit from Saint Andrews in Italy or Ring Jacket in Japan , than I would a fully handmade suit by some random average tailor in a mid-market city.**

Now a Southwick machine-made blazer vs. a sport coat from @Toninno is a whole 'nother story...

This is an interesting article on this exact subject from @dieworkwear

If I was prioritizing what to get in a suit it would be:

1. fit, first and foremost...could be the best suit in the world, but if its 2 sizes to big or small or doesn't work with my frame, its pretty useless.

2. style and silhouette...does it have the cut i was looking for? comparing the quality of Huntsman to Solito is a fools errand since they take two drastically different stylistic approaches to the a suit

3. (tie) fabric and materials...I would argue one should basically have two baskets for this category: quality and subpar. sure, there is a spectrum to quality, but for 95% of the population comparisons between VBC 110s and Lumbs Golden Bale is a lost cause

3. (tie) build quality...there are some factories that make a better product than the average hand-made suit, and there are some handmade suits that can blow any factory out of the water. If you're comparing top tier to top tier, I would go with hand made

**edit: not to disparage average tailors (a skill way above what I have to offer, even at an 'average' level); nor to say that quality craftsmen can't be found in mid-market cities or small towns...I simply mean to compare a standard tailor against a top tier factory

 

[dieworkwear]

To the degree it matters, I think it depends on the quality of the handwork.

And to the degree it matters, I think you can judge it directly by how a suit looks and feels on you.

There are a lot of bad suits out there where the main selling point is how it was handmade. Seems to be putting the cart in front of the horse.

 

[donnghia]

Hi, thank for you guy's opinions

So does it mean people always say about better suit,more quality suit... bla bla bla but those detail are not that much different in the real-world and can hardly be seen by anyone except the owner? (compare between TOP-END brand and Mid-End brand, obviously)

BTW, Is it True that a Bespoke suit/jacket ,will always be better than an OTR suit at the same price ?
What will I have to look at to tell if this is a very high quality suit or not? except those very small detail like Button Hole, Stiching...?

Because we all know even a Mid-range Tailor can make a SUIT THAT FIT PERFECTLY TO CUSTOMER BODY ! so if we assume all the suit fit Perfectly, what else should we look at?

Thank you very much

 

[dieworkwear]

So does it mean people always say about better suit,more quality suit... bla bla bla but those detail are not that much different in the real-world and can hardly be seen by anyone except the owner? (compare between TOP-END brand and Mid-End brand, obviously)

I think there are two ways to appreciate handwork.

You can value craft for its own sake. Quality handwork can be about human accomplishment and skill.

Or you can value it for the effect it confers. But to the degree that handwork matters, you can judge it directly by how the suit looks on you.

BTW, Is it True that a Bespoke suit/jacket ,will always be better than an OTR suit at the same price ?

No, there are a lot of bad bespoke suits out there. To be honest, I think most bespoke suits are bad (although I also think the same of ready-to-wear). Just because something is bespoke does not mean it's good.

What will I have to look at to tell if this is a very high quality suit or not? except those very small detail like Button Hole, Stiching...?

Because we all know even a Mid-range Tailor can make a SUIT THAT FIT PERFECTLY TO CUSTOMER BODY ! so if we assume all the suit fit Perfectly, what else should we look at?

I think you're maybe focusing on the wrong thing. Just train your eye for what looks good on you. Try on different suits. Develop a sense of taste and an eye for tailored clothing. Then just judge suits by how they make you look and feel.

I think sometimes guys miss the forest for the trees when they obsess over quality.

 

[Steve Smith]

Because we all know even a Mid-range Tailor can make a SUIT THAT FIT PERFECTLY TO CUSTOMER BODY ! so if we assume all the suit fit Perfectly, what else should we look at?

Perfect fit is not as common as you seem to think. And a $600 (on sale) made in Italy or USA 1818 Brooks Brothers suit which fits perfectly is going to look much better on you than a $6000 Brioni which fits poorly.

So look at fit first and don't take it for granted. Beyond that it becomes a matter of personal taste and personal priorities. Some will be happy with a $300 department store suit and think that price is expensive. Others, like me, will be happy with the 1818 Brooks Brothers suit. Beyond that level it seems to me that there is a rapidly diminishing return on investment of more money. Others will think that a $6000 Kiton is the entry level of 'quality' and will not be satisfied with less. Nobody is wrong, and if everyone has a great fit then we all look good and convey an appearance of professionalism.

Whether it is a suit, a watch or a car, we find our own level of comfort. The guy wearing the Invicta Dive watch that he bought for less than $100 thinks I am a nut job for paying over $1000 for my Seiko Marine Master. I see the value in the Seiko. But I am not willing to pay $8500 for a Rolex Submariner. We all find our comfort level.

 

[ChasingStyle]

If you break it down by cost buckets, the price you are paying for a suit is as follows:

price = (cost of materials) + (average cost of labor * hours to make a suit) + (other brand costs) + (brand markup)

1. cost of materials will be driven, as mentioned above, by quality of fabric, which in most cases can be broken down into a) quality, b) subpar, c) off the top (think 400+ usd/yard for cashmere)

2. Average cost of labor will be driven mostly by labor location (think central expensive cities v country side v offshoring. A tailor living in London is more expensive than a tailor living in Umbria which is more expensive than a tailor living in Puglia which is more expensive than a tailor living in China) and quality of craftsmanship (for instance in London, top independent coat makers and finishers, such as those working for Sexton etc, command a premium over peers working for other Savile Row shops or City shops).

3. Hours to make a suit is probably at the core of your question. A fully benchmade coat will take 60-80 hours to make, whilst a fully machine-made coat can be done in less than 10. Construction details (important things like glued v full padded or button holes) will also fall in this category. These details drive how much time is needed to finish a coat. The combination of these can alter the perception of overall quality. Some very well executed machine made ones will look better in quality than poor handmade ones. Plenty of examples of both elsewhere in the forum

4. Other brand costs is, in my view, probably the biggest driver of additional cost. Whether you are paying 5th Avenue or Savile Row rent, multiple stores, marketing campaigns, global logistics, large headquarters with tons of corporate functions etc or you are a small shop outside Napoli where your direct family comprises your entire workforce will largely determine how much you need to charge on top of the previous two components. So to the question of is Solito always better than Brooks Brothers, the answer is "I don't know", but every time you pay a BB suit at full price you are paying for an infrastructure that is not directly represented in the garment you are buying. In the Solito case, you are paying for a much, much smaller infrastructure

5. brand markup. Let's admit it, a lot of the drive to wear some of the high end brands comes from being able to say/show you are indeed wearing them. It's a status symbol, much like shoes, watches, cars, boats, or any other toy we like to play with and show to our friends. Some people will swear by their 10k Kiton, others are perfectly happy with their 7k Cifonelli and will laugh at the idea of paying for for RTW/MTM, and yet others will be laughing at the first two, showing off their 2.5k fully handmade Neapolitan suit

In the end, in my view, the only thing that matters is how it looks on you, and how you feel wearing it. Some people are happy with an Ralph Lauren suit they find on ebay for 200 and get altered for 50, others need to spend 7-10k to get the same feeling. To each their own, I'd say.

But always, always try to have fun discovering what the right answer is for you!

 

[comrade]

I once asked this question to my excellent alterations tailor
who also happens to have been trained as an apprentice in Europe.
In his opinion there is no substitute for highly skilled handwork in con-
structing the collar and lapel area of a jacket. For the rest, machine work
is just as good.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

I once asked this question to my excellent alterations tailor
who also happens to have been trained as an apprentice in Europe.
In his opinion there is no substitute for highly skilled handwork in con-
structing the collar and lapel area of a jacket. For the rest, machine work
is just as good.

Did he say that in the context of a bespoke suit or an OTR? Just curious.

 

[comrade]

Did he say that in the context of a bespoke suit or an OTR? Just curious.

My guess is OTR and/or MTM. He sees many very high end suits/ jackets
like Kiton, Brioni, Oxford, etc. In my area. Menlo Park ,CA, which is an extremely wealthy
community, I doubt that many men wear bespoke. Or at least I seldom see
bespoke when I visit the shop and see the clothing.