does anyone here play MMORPGs?

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by GQgeek, Dec 4, 2006.

  1. GQgeek

    GQgeek Senior member

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    Battlefield: 2142 is about as hardcore online roleplaying as I get. I've shyed away from many of those games strictly b/c people get sooo into them, they lose touch with their real life. Apparently they're crazy addictive.

    This is undoubtedly a big problem. Some people get sucked in to the point of neglecting RL responsabilities. I did back in the day although I've got too much to lose to repeat that pattern of behavior at this point in time.

    I think EQ was probably the worst for that. EQ was never my big thing but when I played i was in a "uber guild" nonetheless. That meant we raided (went after big kills) every night from 7pm till whenever we were done, which typically meant 1am at best. If the raid wiped and we had to do corpse recovery, it could extend till the wee hours of the morning depending on how bad the wipe was and in what zone.

    AC was probably something you would have liked. You could kill anyone you wanted, take their stuff and they couldn't do anything but whine or attempt to kill you in return and hopefully get their stuff back. It was quite tactical and a good amount of twitch skill was involved. That was unusual in an mmorpg which are usually very character-dependant in terms of killing ability.

    Back in uni I found that I generally prefered pking to going out. Sad, I know, but it was a blast in the early days. I've done a lot of extreme sports, including sky diving, rock climbing at a competitive level, etc., and I can say with a straight face that PKing in AC got my blood pumping more than sky diving. Rock climbing trumped all though.

    If I went back I'd definitely moderate my play time compared to the old days though.

    Brian, I'll PM you the guild details. I don't want to mix my online identities! Guild politics can be very nasty and I'd hate for stuff on this forum to find its way to "that world."
     
  2. dkzzzz

    dkzzzz Senior member

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    I would be curious to know which PVP game you played the most and which game could you recommend based on it's PVP play.
    I am curious about MMORPG with PVP element, although I tryed only one (WOW) and hated almost every aspect of it.
     
  3. GQgeek

    GQgeek Senior member

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    I would be curious to know which PVP game you played the most and which game could you recommend based on it's PVP play.
    I am curious about MMORPG with PVP element, although I tryed only one (WOW) and hated almost every aspect of it.


    WoW was terrible imo.

    I could write a dissertation on this subject, but from a game mechanics point of view, several things are essential to really good pvp.

    1) Hard-coded classes (like cleric, wizard, warrior, etc.) generally don't make for great pvp. It's much better to have a skill-based system that allows to you tailor your character for the requirements of PvP, which are usually completely different from PvE based content.

    To give an example, in Asheron's call, any player could heal himself quite efficiently through various means assuming he had acquired the right skills. This made it possible for a skilled player to keep himself alive while fighting multiple players.

    If you compare to a class-based system where certain classes are meant to do damage, others mitigate damage, and others heal, you can see where the problem occurs from a 1on1 PvP perspective. You might be able to heal well, but your damage output sucks. Or you might deal insane damage, but have absolutely no ability to heal yourself. This in effect limits you to killing one or maybe two other players of similar level before you've spent your mana or endurance and taken enough damage from other players that you can't heal (since it's class-based).

    2) Twitch-skill needs to be involved somehow. In AC, you could dodge spells and arrows, hide behind terrain obstacles, use line of sight, outrun and outjump the other player, and this all utilized player skill. Characters had enough maneuverability that you could employ a divide and conquer strategy in fighting other players. You could concentrate on your run and jump skill to make yourself faster and enhance this ability. It was extremely important.

    To give an example of what this made possible, I would go in to towns, kill a couple people before anyone realized what was happening, and soon after end-up with 10 people chasing my ass. But since i was a good player, i could weave in and out of buildings to catch people alone and eventually take out the group. I could fire a couple spells and then hide behind a building and heal without worrying about 10 players dealing damage to me while i stood still. I'd often die against those odds, but it was a hell of a lot of fun and I'd usually take a few people with me so it was worth it. In a class-based game like EQ or DAoC, this simply would not be possible.

    Those games also weren't helped by the very fixed rate of movement. In DAoC, if you ran within range of a group of players and attacked, even if they didn't have stuns, you'd never be able to accomplish the same type of thing that was possible in AC because your movement was so limited and you couldn't heal the damage that was done. To be fair it was more group oriented, but group-oriented pvp just doesn't compare to 1 on 1.

    AC didn't have aiming, but timing your spells was extremely important otherwise you'd never hit your opponent. This is in stark contrast to most games of this type that use a random number generator combined with a comparison of your offensive skill vs. the opponents defensive skill to determine whether you hit or miss, completely taking player skill out of the equation.

    3) Pehaps the most important thing is that players should be allowed to police themselves in the game world without hard-coded rules and artificial limitations on who you can kill and where.

    When I started, I was a good guy. My first experience in AC was being gang-raped by a group of high-level players. And so i set out to join an "anti" (as in anti-player killer or pk) guild to help kill those mean players. Well, by level 20 i had completely lost interest in it. The was no margin in helping people and the anti guilds had these stupid rules of engagement that stipulated you couldn't attack other players first, even if you suspected they might attack you. It didn't take me long to say "fuck that" so I started pking and never looked back. It's a hell of a lot more fun.

    The point is, the server had player killers and griefers, but it also had anti and good guilds that formed as a result of them. So the antis would join-up and occupy cities with other good guilds and each lend a hand at defending against us nasty PKs. PKs would kill the good guys, and each other. There were no battlegrounds or artificial limitations placed upon pvp. anyone could kill anyone, regardless of guild affiliation, race, or level. The players policed themselves and it made it all a lot more interesting.

    There were constantly shifting alliances, people took-over towns and good leveling spots, there were good people and bad people, people you could trust and people that would rob you blind. It made the server extremely dynamic and very real. Nobody was anonymous, unlike in EQ or DAoC, wherein you know your guild and maybe your main rivals and that's it. Even the newbs learned who the bad guys were really fast. Reputation was very important and it mades things a lot more interesting.

    4) Consequences

    MMORPGs aren't supposed to be like quake. If you die, it's supposed to hurt. You shouldn't just respawn with all your equipment intact as if nothing ever happened. If that's the case, it renders pvp meaningless because there's no real loss upon dying. The outcome of a fight should mean that one person gains something meaningful while the other one loses. Death is supposed to sting. Being able to loot someone's corpse is a nice little reward for killing them. If you can't loot other players, it makes being a pk rather pointless because in choosing to be a PK, you're basically setting yourself up to be attacked by every other player on the server. This makes life difficult if you're not good. There needs to be compensation for that risk.

    There is a not-so-recent trend to make death painless. It certainly doesn't hurt in WoW. In AC2 it was a joke, and EQ2 took away most of the penalties. This is a shame because difficulty is what makes anything in these games worth doing. It seems a lot of players just want to log in to a game and "win" with the least amount of effort possible.

    Anyway, to answer your question Darfall Online is the only game that looks to have good pvp in the near future. PvP just isn't that popular b/c people hate losing what they've spent so much time earning. They don't like the frustration of being killed by other players. You need pretty thick skin to enjoy this sort of environment because it can be pretty harsh. I'd be interested to know what you didn't like about PvP in WoW. PvP has a harsh learning curve but it's ultimately much more rewarding than spending your nights killing scripted AI.

    Having said that, among PvE games Vanguard certainly looks interesting and if I decide i don't have the time to remain competitive in DF, i'll likely play that instead.
     
  4. Reggs

    Reggs Senior member

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    The only MMORPG that is of any interest to me right now is Eve. Not that I'll ever play it, but.

    I did the free trial for it. Most of my time was spent watching the game basically play itself. If you want something complex but dont have the time to devote to it try Anarchy Online. It's free and has some great art and music.
     
  5. theshonen8899

    theshonen8899 Senior member

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    Battlefield: 2142 is about as hardcore online roleplaying as I get. I've shyed away from many of those games strictly b/c people get sooo into them, they lose touch with their real life. Apparently they're crazy addictive.

    That's a role play game??
    I thought it was going to be a fps. I quit playing mmo's a couple years ago 'cause they sucked the fucking hell outta my life and my grades started to show it. I only play console or fps single players now.
     
  6. GQgeek

    GQgeek Senior member

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    That's a role play game??
    I thought it was going to be a fps. I quit playing mmo's a couple years ago 'cause they sucked the fucking hell outta my life and my grades started to show it. I only play console or fps single players now.


    It is fps.
     
  7. dkzzzz

    dkzzzz Senior member

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    It is fps.

    It looks to me that DF is heading for cancellation, like so many MMORPGs before it. It is unfortunatelly never a good sign when the game has been stuck in developement for 4+ years.
    Tha's how it looks to me.
    My guess is, it is unprofitable for developers to make niche PVP games that you have described. Although I would certainly be more inclined to play a game with open PVP and dynamic world system, it looks like it's not in a cards for now.
     
  8. GQgeek

    GQgeek Senior member

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    It looks to me that DF is heading for cancellation, like so many MMORPGs before it. It is unfortunatelly never a good sign when the game has been stuck in developement for 4+ years.
    Tha's how it looks to me.
    My guess is it is unprofitable to developers to make niche PVP games that you described. Although I would certainly be more inclined to play a game with open PVP and dynamic world system, it looks like it's not in a cards for now.


    i think that's premature. sb was in development forever and even though when it released it sucked, it still released. i got beta invites 5 years before beta actually hit for that game.

    clan betas have been handed out and it seems to be pretty imminent. either way, i'll know soon enough since i just got hooked up with an account through my old guild who will be in phase 1 of the closed beta.
     
  9. briancl

    briancl Senior member

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    Battlefield: 2142 is about as hardcore online roleplaying as I get. I've shyed away from many of those games strictly b/c people get sooo into them, they lose touch with their real life. Apparently they're crazy addictive.

    I occasionally play BF2142, but after maxing two classes, I've become bored..

    A few years ago, I worked in a small office that played Star Wars Galaxies (all 11 people played at least 4 hours a day), so i joined in. I never really enjoyed it or took anything away from it, so I don't think I'd play another MMORPG.
     
  10. skalogre

    skalogre Senior member

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    How can you kill that which has no life?

    [​IMG]

    I have not touched any of these MMORPG actually. Spent a good amount of time on Battlefield 2 though (nothing like doing high-speed donuts in the middle of an enemy flag in a FAV while your teammates spew bullets on anyone foolish enough to spawn nearby [​IMG] ). BF2142 is an impressive improvement in stability and network performance but accussations of integrated spyware/tracking software give me the chills. Plus I need more RAM to get it running smoothly.
     
  11. dkzzzz

    dkzzzz Senior member

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    For anyone out of the MMORPG loop for a few years I would highly recommend DAOC PVP server or Classic server.
    The game is brilliant.
     
  12. GQgeek

    GQgeek Senior member

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    meh. i suppose if i had to play something right now i might pick a stealth class in daoc but daoc pvp is nothing compared to classic AC or UO. it's basically an everquest clone with pvp tacked-on. plus there's no item drop so you don't really lose anything when you die.

    daoc gameplay got annoying because we'd take keeps and then euro timezone guilds would take them back while we were asleep. DAoC was also the game that brought zerg-tactics to prominence.

    my suggestion to anyone that wants real pvp is to try darkfall when it launches. there's nothing like playing in a completely predatory environment where people can beat you down, take your stuff, and then dance on your corpse. The risk makes it much more interesting.
     
  13. Stax

    Stax Senior member

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    I beta tested Star Wars Galaxies, but that's about it.
     
  14. dkzzzz

    dkzzzz Senior member

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    meh. i suppose if i had to play something right now i might pick a stealth class in daoc but daoc pvp is nothing compared to classic AC or UO. it's basically an everquest clone with pvp tacked-on. plus there's no item drop so you don't really lose anything when you die.

    daoc gameplay got annoying because we'd take keeps and then euro timezone guilds would take them back while we were asleep. DAoC was also the game that brought zerg-tactics to prominence.

    my suggestion to anyone that wants real pvp is to try darkfall when it launches. there's nothing like playing in a completely predatory environment where people can beat you down, take your stuff, and then dance on your corpse. The risk makes it much more interesting.


    You sound like a player from a blue server that never ventured into Andred or Mordred servers.
     
  15. GQgeek

    GQgeek Senior member

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    You sound like a player from a blue server that never ventured into Andred or Mordred servers.

    Now that's funny.

    I learned the ropes on darktide (Asheron's Call), which any hardcore pvper with any basis for comparison will tell you was THE best pvp server ever. It had all of the elements required from a game mechanics perspective until bugs and exploiting ruined it. Nothing in DAoC can compare and I'll tell you why.

    DAoC doesn't have the game mechanics to make a truely good pvp game. You can't dodge spells or attacks the way you can dodge weapons fire in an fps. It doesn't have true projectiles. Instead, it's hit/miss is based on an abstract dodge/parry skill. Or, when a melee attacks you, he sticks to you and you can't get away. He's literally tethered to your ass. A highly skilled player can't take on multiple opponents of similiar level on his own. The game mechanics make it impossible. Lastly, there were no real consequence for losing. In AC on the other hand, people got beaten-down so hard they quit the game out of frustration, rerolled, or submitted and whored xp to their enemies.

    DAoC's game mechanics were fundamentally based upon EQ, which was based upon dikumud. A random number generator combined with a comparison of your level and character skills vs. your opponents' determined whether you hit or miss. There were no reflexes or dexterity involved in the process.

    FWIW, there were no ffa pvp servers with looting at release otherwise we would have been on them. Our guild did dominate our server though, the toughest server at release btw, until we quit all at once at the end of december. We quit because we had tired of ass-raping the server and there was no good competition. And you probably don't know this, but before DAoC released, all the top pvp guilds from other games agreed to play on the merlin server to settle old scores. I'm talking about feuds and vendettas developed over 10 years of online gaming (since the early 90s). So at release we all went to this one server. Our side "won", as much as you can win, when killing someone just means they have to pay a fee and run back to the fight.

    We were the first to max out in levels, and the first to hit 1mil RP, which was double our closest, and much larger competitors, who also had a head start cause they knew where everything was from beta. We pushed our only real competition out of the best keeps and the best post-40 frontier leveling spots, even though they got there first, and we did it with inferior numbers, even though DAoC was all about zerging your opponent.

    I'm not going to pinpoint exactly who i play with since google has a long memory and I don't want to mix the two identities, but go here if you want an idea of the type of gamer i was and the guys that I played with.

    So blue server? No... I can pretty much guarantee that my small guild will be the top of the food chain when DF releases though. ;p
     

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