1. And... we're back. You'll notice that all of your images are back as well, as are our beloved emoticons, including the infamous :foo: We have also worked with our server folks and developers to fix the issues that were slowing down the site.

    There is still work to be done - the images in existing sigs are not yet linked, for example, and we are working on a way to get the images to load faster - which will improve the performance of the site, especially on the pages with a ton of images, and we will continue to work diligently on that and keep you updated.

    Cheers,

    Fok on behalf of the entire Styleforum team
    Dismiss Notice

Divot terror

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Tangfastic, Nov 24, 2009.

  1. Tangfastic

    Tangfastic Senior member

    Messages:
    1,358
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Location:
    Bristol
    In a new thread worthy coincidence, I have just received an e-bay purchase of a nice flannel jacket right during the unfolding of that thread with the divots. The jacket is lovely, and fits well in the chest and length, but has incredible shoulder divots. I think it's from the 1980s, I am slim with slightly (normally) sloping shoulders, I expect most size 38 OTR jackets to fit reasonably well. The e-bay jacket was cheap and I'll probably drop it off to a charity shop. But the timing has made me think.

    I have only had a divot problem with two jackets I have ever tried on - a cheap h&m cord blazer and a better constructed Jil Sander one. Anyway, I must have tried on / owned dozens of jackets and only come across divoting twice until my latest e-bay purchase.

    Have I been remarkably lucky in avoiding divoting in the past?
    Can anything aside from going bespoke (beyond my small-timer means) be done to cure a divoting jacket?
    Is divoting always due to shoulder padding?
    Can I ever buy a jacket I haven't tried on again in confidence?

    Thanks to SF I have become happy to spend up to 30% of the retail price on really quite expensive jackets, but now my whole jacket related world has been thrown into doubt and confusion.
     
  2. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Senior member

    Messages:
    25,756
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
  3. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    20,795
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Obviously, you are overreacting. Cloth moves, you know--particularly when it is black and has a sheen.
     
  4. Tangfastic

    Tangfastic Senior member

    Messages:
    1,358
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Location:
    Bristol
    I still have 2 e-bay jackets I'm waiting to receive. I doubt I'll have pleasant dreams until they turn up and I actually get them over my shoulders.

    I was hoping for some reassurance or solace on divoting, maybe even someone with in depth knowledge going into body types and shoulder padding levels, tips to look out for to avoid divoting and possible remedial tailoring action, that sort of thing...
     
  5. jefferyd

    jefferyd Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    1,434
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2008
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    This one keeps coming up and most people are mistaken about the causes so here's a detailed look at what causes shoulder divots or dents.

    First, the divots have nothing to do with the width of the shoulder- we often hear people making comments about a shoulder being too wide because it is denting but this is not the cause. Look at old photos of Tommy Nutter's work- you can't get much wider than that and they don't dent.

    Second, the divots have nothing to do with the amount of shoulder padding; again, you can tons of it and not have dents, and you can have dents on an unpadded shoulder.

    THIS is what causes the divots.

    The armhole must be cut in the right shape for the body of the wearer. The sleeve is then cut in a very precise relationship to the armhole. In the figure below, the height of the armhole dictates the height of the sleeve cap and the width of the armhole dictates the width of the sleeve cap. We'll say that distance a-b must be equal to e-f and distance c-d must be equal to g-h (for the super geeks, this is not the actual formula but we'll say it is for simplicity).

    If you put on a jacket whose armhole has not been cut wide enough for you, or that the chest pulls because it is too tight (or a host of other reasons the armhole may distort) the armhole will contract- it will get wider and shorter. The sleeve cap is now too long and narrow (a-b is shorter than e-f and c-d is wider than g-h) so it pulls from front to back, and the extra length collapses. THIS is what causes the divot.

    The only way to try to remedy this is to remove the sleeve and shorten the cap (cut away excess length); this will, in some cases, be sufficient, but in many cases you also need some extra width to the sleeve cap, which you will not be able to gain since there is no outlet for it. This is neither easy nor cheap so your average dry-cleaner alterations tailor may not be able to do it.

    The only way to know if a jacket is gong to do this is to try it on. If it dents, try a size up or try a different maker.

    [​IMG]
     
    4 people like this.
  6. niidawg3

    niidawg3 Senior member

    Messages:
    3,495
    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    This one keeps coming up and most people are mistaken about the causes so here's a detailed look at what causes shoulder divots or dents.

    First, the divots have nothing to do with the width of the shoulder- we often hear people making comments about a shoulder being too wide because it is denting but this is not the cause. Look at old photos of Tommy Nutter's work- you can't get much wider than that and they don't dent.

    Second, the divots have nothing to do with the amount of shoulder padding; again, you can tons of it and not have dents, and you can have dents on an unpadded shoulder.

    THIS is what causes the divots.

    The armhole must be cut in the right shape for the body of the wearer. The sleeve is then cut in a very precise relationship to the armhole. In the figure below, the height of the armhole dictates the height of the sleeve cap and the width of the armhole dictates the width of the sleeve cap. We'll say that distance a-b must be equal to e-f and distance c-d must be equal to g-h (for the super geeks, this is not the actual formula but we'll say it is for simplicity).

    If you put on a jacket whose armhole has not been cut wide enough for you, or that the chest pulls because it is too tight (or a host of other reasons the armhole may distort) the armhole will contract- it will get wider and shorter. The sleeve cap is now too long and narrow (a-b is shorter than e-f and c-d is wider than g-h) so it pulls from front to back, and the extra length collapses. THIS is what causes the divot.

    The only way to try to remedy this is to remove the sleeve and shorten the cap (cut away excess length); this will, in some cases, be sufficient, but in many cases you also need some extra width to the sleeve cap, which you will not be able to gain since there is no outlet for it. This is neither easy nor cheap so your average dry-cleaner alterations tailor may not be able to do it.

    The only way to know if a jacket is gong to do this is to try it on. If it dents, try a size up or try a different maker.

    [​IMG]


    great post!!! thanks for taking the time to write such a well thought out response.

    the picture didnt show up though.
     
  7. apropos

    apropos Senior member

    Messages:
    4,456
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2008
    This one keeps coming up and most people are mistaken about the causes so here's a detailed look at what causes shoulder divots or dents.

    First, the divots have nothing to do with the width of the shoulder- we often hear people making comments about a shoulder being too wide because it is denting but this is not the cause. Look at old photos of Tommy Nutter's work- you can't get much wider than that and they don't dent.

    Second, the divots have nothing to do with the amount of shoulder padding; again, you can tons of it and not have dents, and you can have dents on an unpadded shoulder.

    THIS is what causes the divots.

    The armhole must be cut in the right shape for the body of the wearer. The sleeve is then cut in a very precise relationship to the armhole. In the figure below, the height of the armhole dictates the height of the sleeve cap and the width of the armhole dictates the width of the sleeve cap. We'll say that distance a-b must be equal to e-f and distance c-d must be equal to g-h (for the super geeks, this is not the actual formula but we'll say it is for simplicity).

    If you put on a jacket whose armhole has not been cut wide enough for you, or that the chest pulls because it is too tight (or a host of other reasons the armhole may distort) the armhole will contract- it will get wider and shorter. The sleeve cap is now too long and narrow (a-b is shorter than e-f and c-d is wider than g-h) so it pulls from front to back, and the extra length collapses. THIS is what causes the divot.

    The only way to try to remedy this is to remove the sleeve and shorten the cap (cut away excess length); this will, in some cases, be sufficient, but in many cases you also need some extra width to the sleeve cap, which you will not be able to gain since there is no outlet for it. This is neither easy nor cheap so your average dry-cleaner alterations tailor may not be able to do it.

    The only way to know if a jacket is gong to do this is to try it on. If it dents, try a size up or try a different maker.

    Perfect.

    Would this 'divoting' not occur as well if a shoulder has been cut too 'square' for one's shoulders? In that case the height of the sleeve cap would be excessive, despite the width (hopefully) being ok.

    I had the exact same thing happen to me a few days back during a forward fitting. The tailor ripped the entire sleeve off and increased the 'overlap' between the front and back panels of the jacket to better follow the slope of my shoulder, also imparting at the same time a forward 'sweep' to the shoulder seam.
     
  8. Tangfastic

    Tangfastic Senior member

    Messages:
    1,358
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Location:
    Bristol
    Thanks Jefferyd, I shall sleep a little more soundly tonight, and will now take my flannel jacket to a tailor.
     
  9. alepenn

    alepenn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    96
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    Sorry to bump an old thread but do you have this photo? I'm having the same problem with some MTM jackets. How can I solve for it? I didn't quite understand the solutions above.

    Thanks
     
  10. alepenn

    alepenn Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    96
    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2010
    I second this question- am having the same problem and the shoulders are relatively "square." if ther was a steeper drop in the shoulders so that the padded shoulder ended a bit earlier/closer to where my natural shoulder is would the divot be eliminated?

    Thanks
     
  11. OttoSkadelig

    OttoSkadelig Senior member

    Messages:
    970
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2010
    Location:
    The Dark Side of the Spoon
    In a new thread worthy coincidence, I have just received an e-bay purchase of a nice flannel jacket right during the unfolding of that thread with the divots.

    threads can have divots?

    this calls for a superstring theory of divots.
     
  12. Despos

    Despos Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    6,102
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Sorry to bump an old thread but do you have this photo? I'm having the same problem with some MTM jackets. How can I solve for it? I didn't quite understand the solutions above.

    Thanks


    I second this question- am having the same problem and the shoulders are relatively "square." if ther was a steeper drop in the shoulders so that the padded shoulder ended a bit earlier/closer to where my natural shoulder is would the divot be eliminated?

    Thanks


    Maybe this will help. If you have a circle that is 10" in diameter and you try to fit an 11" diameter circle into the 10" circle you will have to bend the larger circle to make it fit. That bend is the divot. You have to trim the larger circle down to a 10" diameter and it will fit into the other cleanly. Padding or shoulder extension or shoulder slope are irrelevant. Read Jeffery again.
     
  13. furosemide

    furosemide Senior member

    Messages:
    101
    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Maybe this will help. If you have a circle that is 10" in diameter and you try to fit an 11" diameter circle into the 10" circle you will have to bend the larger circle to make it fit. That bend is the divot. You have to trim the larger circle down to a 10" diameter and it will fit into the other cleanly. Padding or shoulder extension or shoulder slope are irrelevant. Read Jeffery again.

    So I have the same issue and have sunken a significant amount of money into MTM that all have this issue of the should divots. Is there anything I can tell my MTM maker to change? Or is the only way to get around this to go bespoke?
     
  14. clemente21

    clemente21 Senior member

    Messages:
    277
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2011
    Resurrecting this with a particular problem - why would one shoulder divot and not the other (If it has nothing to do with slope and width)? Or is the fact that it happens to one side proof that isn't a divot and that it's something else entirely (ie some horrendous bodily defect)?
     
  15. lightbulb1986

    lightbulb1986 Member

    Messages:
    6
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    does anyone have that picture?
     
  16. hugh51271

    hugh51271 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    87
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Pictures/photos have gone
     
  17. XFactor

    XFactor Senior member

    Messages:
    180
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2012
    Did no one on SF save a copy of that picture?
     
  18. Mike Fabio

    Mike Fabio New Member

    Messages:
    1
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2016
    I have a cure for this problem! I have a beautifully made bespoke suits that I purchased years ago. Whether due to wear, or improper storage or dry-cleaning, the shoulders have developed those disgusting divots, rendering the suit useless to me! After spending $$$$ at the tailor who put new shoulder pads in (to no avail), I was ready to give up and send this $1,000 suit to Salvation Army for the huuuge deduction of $60.....ouch!!!!...Then I realized I was relying on a good tailor that knew his business, but didn't know how to problem solve. I'm a structural engineer, so solving problems is what comes naturally to me. One day, I put on my OTR Ralph Lauren navy sport coat and realized the shoulders were perfect! I mean absolutely PERFECT! so I took off the jacket and started feeling around inside the shoulder. That's when I realized what the big difference between this $150 OTR jacket, and my custom made Italian suit was... The RL had shoulder pads too, except for the fact that it also had the canvassing going over the shoulder pad, over the entire shoulder, all the way to the collar, which effectively eliminates the chance of any 'wrinkling' in the shoulder! It created a perfect form to which the material was attached, thus giving the illusion of a perfectly formed shoulder. I took this jacket to my tailor (who by now was tired of me), and told him that I wanted him to put the same material that was in the RL jacket into the Italian jacket, in the same place. Period. He argued that this wasn't going to do anything, but it was sooooo obvious that this would solve the problem, I insisted. One week later, he called me that the jacket was done. I went in, put the jacket on, and BINGO! The shoulders were PERFECTLY SMOOTH, sharp, and crisp!!!! I fell back in love with my Milan-made suit, after not wearing it for five years. So....this is what you need to do...get a jacket that has great looking shoulders, and I'll just about guarantee it's got a full light-formed padding covering the ENTIRE shoulder. Rip open that jacket's lining (don't worry, it can get sewed back...and tell your tailor you want the exact same padding in the exact same place. The cost for me was $100 (and my tailor is expensive), however he had already charged me $125 for installing the new shoulder pads weeks before. This is the fix, guys! Of course, the rest of the suit's gotta look good before you spend any $$$ on fixes like this one....
    Good Luck!

    Mike
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by