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Discussions about the fashion industry thread

jalebi

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How much is it also a part of US buying culture in which people are so accustomed to waiting for sales? Not sure if it’s similar in other countries.

I don’t remember the last time I bought clothes or shoes on sale but it has been ages.

This may be more pronounced in the US, but I still see it a lot in the UK. The one thing we don't have is final sale, as all online items need to be returnable under distance selling regulations.
 

cb200

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People want to feel good about a purchase. Most people have little way of determining the value of something independent of price signals. A discount will always give someone a little boost of feeling good as they can attache a real value to it.

Part of the reason I hate the "this would cost 3X in traditional retail, but we're cutting out the middle man" value offer of say Everlane is that it's a dark trick that frames the value in terms of an imaginary discount that never existed. Good trick. But a trick.
 

keykoo

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I've personally found that sales are a detriment to me actually buying goods. I don't care about being the "first" person to have an item and almost everything makes it to 40% off. Why would I pay full price for an item that is very likely going to make it to sale season?

I don't have these same concerns for rands that generally are hard to find on sale and/or don't go on sale to the general public. For example, wife is a fan of Hermes scarves and we'll generally stop by to purchase them as they come out throughout the year without worrying if we're missing out on a deal by purchasing it now. Similarly, I'm okay treating myself to the latest Visvim drops since they have very limited sales.

I don't think there are a lot of lessons for brands to learn here as that strategy only works where the demand generally outpaces the demand *shrug*
 

SimonC

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Part of the reason I hate the "this would cost 3X in traditional retail, but we're cutting out the middle man" value offer of say Everlane is that it's a dark trick that the value in terms of an imaginary discount that never existed. Good trick. But a trick.

True but that’s been going on for forever with the outlets and their ‘compare at’ price tags, or the soft brands at places like TJMaxx.
 

NickPollica

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Why do you think that is? In general, I’ve often seen you criticize production in Italy as well. Is this mainly a cost issue, meaning they simply can’t give their employees enough time to do things well (I imagine a product could turn out better with 10 hours of cheap labour va 4 hours of expensive labour, for example)?

Just curious about your take on it.

This isn’t something I can really answer quickly and easily. But more than anything else it’s been about investment in process. The companies that I worked with in China on RL products made the most consistent, quality clothing I’ve ever seen. Not just for the price, period. They were vertically integrated so that they created the fabrics from scratch, preshrunk them, washed them, dyed them, on top of cutting and sewing. All in house. This set up doesnt exist in America, anywhere. If you want to make something in NY, you are your own assembly line. You find the fabric, you find your trim you bring it to the sewers and they cut and sew (where the job is nearly always messy), if you want it not to shrink after one trip through the dyer you try to plan for shrinkage in the pattern, cross your fingers, take it to the one wash house in NJ and hope that it comes in on spec. After all of this, your first cost is usually at least 30% higher than a supplier that will do a much better job at every single step in the process. There is some good production out in LA (mostly cut and sew knits) but nearly all want Asia-sized order quantities and charge Italian production pricing. And most are again limited in wash and finishing capabilities. Italy is a whole story on its own but it is no coincidence that I haven’t made a thing outside of sweaters there since I started 18 East. Consistency of make, attention to detail and overall production quality pale in comparison to every other place I’ve ever made anything. Though to be clear, when I say this I’m speaking about industrialized production, not artisan goods like bespoke tailoring.
 

NickPollica

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People want to feel good about a purchase. Most people have little way of determining the value of something independent of price signals. A discount will always give someone a little boost of feeling good as they can attache a real value to it.

Part of the reason I hate the "this would cost 3X in traditional retail, but we're cutting out the middle man" value offer of say Everlane is that it's a dark trick that frames the value in terms of an imaginary discount that never existed. Good trick. But a trick.

But it’s not imaginary. They’re explaining the math in the margins. They tell you what everything costs and then keystone it (2x). Most traditional wholesale brands take their final first cost, x it 2 and that’s their wholesale cost. Then their wholesale partners multiply that by between 2 and 3x.

The problem with most of these VC-backed DTC brands is that the product usually just isn’t good. The founders often brag that they have no previous experience making what they are trying to sell you, just the hubris that they can “do it better.”
 

ValidusLA

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The DTC hell is real. My wife and I bought new bags before our Japan trip in the fall. I love my B+R. She already wants to replace her Away. I dont know what it will take to get consumers to wake up to the schlock peddling, but I hope they do.
 

dieworkwear

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I get the impression that sometimes clothing enthusiasts undervalue the gains you get from economies of scale. As you increase the number of production units, your cost goes down, so you can drive down the retail price of your product. Sometimes that means you can also offer the customer more value for their money. Some of these companies have amazing design teams. Or they may have relationships with certain mills or other suppliers. Companies such as RL and J. Crew are really good at keep sizing consistent despite the huge number of SKUs.

But then it seems like sometimes mass-market retailers have less interesting designs because they have to move more units. If you have to sell a ton of units, maybe you can't make some weird looking jacket. Or use indigo that will crock, etc.

Three of my favorite brands -- RRL, PRL, and J. Crew -- are all mass-market retailers. I think J. Crew is incredible, even if the clothes are pretty basic. You can get a really good field jacket there for like $200. I can't remember what PRL field jackets cost, but they're even cooler.

The J. Crew one has a bunch of cool pockets, a drawstring waist, a hidden hood, a stand-up collar, etc. PRL does different versions, but the one I own has a nice wash, some weird distressing detail on the arm where it looks like someone removed a patch, etc. I think of quality in clothing more in terms of design and production execution.

Also, think that consumers would be better off if they stopped obsessing over quality and value, and just attuned themselves more to what looks good and gives them joy. They should buy stuff with "emotional durability," which is more meaningful than "construction durability" at this point. I kind of hate it when clothing -- and especially the fashion end of clothing -- gets distilled to these metrics because it feels like we're talking about computer equipment.
 

IJReilly

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Also, think that consumers would be better off if they stopped obsessing over quality and value, and just attuned themselves more to what looks good and gives them joy. They should buy stuff with "emotional durability," which is more meaningful than "construction durability" at this point. I kind of hate it when clothing -- and especially the fashion end of clothing -- gets distilled to these metrics because it feels like we're talking about computer equipment.

I agree with this, very much. Sometimes it seems some guys regard clothing as an engineering problem. Execute to pre-defined specifications at best price/quality ratio. This is maybe part insecurity in their own sense of aesthetics, part the same deal mentality that drives sales culture.

The only time durability has been an issue for me was when I bought a pair of fast fashion corduroy trousers ten years ago (they lasted three wears).
 

IJReilly

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This isn’t something I can really answer quickly and easily. But more than anything else it’s been about investment in process. The companies that I worked with in China on RL products made the most consistent, quality clothing I’ve ever seen. Not just for the price, period. They were vertically integrated so that they created the fabrics from scratch, preshrunk them, washed them, dyed them, on top of cutting and sewing. All in house. This set up doesnt exist in America, anywhere. If you want to make something in NY, you are your own assembly line. You find the fabric, you find your trim you bring it to the sewers and they cut and sew (where the job is nearly always messy), if you want it not to shrink after one trip through the dyer you try to plan for shrinkage in the pattern, cross your fingers, take it to the one wash house in NJ and hope that it comes in on spec. After all of this, your first cost is usually at least 30% higher than a supplier that will do a much better job at every single step in the process. There is some good production out in LA (mostly cut and sew knits) but nearly all want Asia-sized order quantities and charge Italian production pricing. And most are again limited in wash and finishing capabilities. Italy is a whole story on its own but it is no coincidence that I haven’t made a thing outside of sweaters there since I started 18 East. Consistency of make, attention to detail and overall production quality pale in comparison to every other place I’ve ever made anything. Though to be clear, when I say this I’m speaking about industrialized production, not artisan goods like bespoke tailoring.

Thank you, this is very interesting. My guess would be that these investments have not come about in Europe and the US because there is a notion that large scale clothing manufacture has no future there.
 

ValidusLA

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This isn’t something I can really answer quickly and easily. But more than anything else it’s been about investment in process. The companies that I worked with in China on RL products made the most consistent, quality clothing I’ve ever seen. Not just for the price, period. They were vertically integrated so that they created the fabrics from scratch, preshrunk them, washed them, dyed them, on top of cutting and sewing. All in house. This set up doesnt exist in America, anywhere. If you want to make something in NY, you are your own assembly line. You find the fabric, you find your trim you bring it to the sewers and they cut and sew (where the job is nearly always messy), if you want it not to shrink after one trip through the dyer you try to plan for shrinkage in the pattern, cross your fingers, take it to the one wash house in NJ and hope that it comes in on spec. After all of this, your first cost is usually at least 30% higher than a supplier that will do a much better job at every single step in the process. There is some good production out in LA (mostly cut and sew knits) but nearly all want Asia-sized order quantities and charge Italian production pricing. And most are again limited in wash and finishing capabilities. Italy is a whole story on its own but it is no coincidence that I haven’t made a thing outside of sweaters there since I started 18 East. Consistency of make, attention to detail and overall production quality pale in comparison to every other place I’ve ever made anything. Though to be clear, when I say this I’m speaking about industrialized production, not artisan goods like bespoke tailoring.

Hefty agree. We have to meet razor thin allowance percentages on our goods to our private label clients, and our Chinese factory partners meet these quality standards essentially 99% of the time.

Now we do our sample creations / tech packs / patterns in LA and then basically send to China to do on massive scale - but they do it incredibly well.
 

jalebi

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This isn’t something I can really answer quickly and easily. But more than anything else it’s been about investment in process. The companies that I worked with in China on RL products made the most consistent, quality clothing I’ve ever seen. Not just for the price, period. They were vertically integrated so that they created the fabrics from scratch, preshrunk them, washed them, dyed them, on top of cutting and sewing. All in house. This set up doesnt exist in America, anywhere. If you want to make something in NY, you are your own assembly line. You find the fabric, you find your trim you bring it to the sewers and they cut and sew (where the job is nearly always messy), if you want it not to shrink after one trip through the dyer you try to plan for shrinkage in the pattern, cross your fingers, take it to the one wash house in NJ and hope that it comes in on spec. After all of this, your first cost is usually at least 30% higher than a supplier that will do a much better job at every single step in the process. There is some good production out in LA (mostly cut and sew knits) but nearly all want Asia-sized order quantities and charge Italian production pricing. And most are again limited in wash and finishing capabilities. Italy is a whole story on its own but it is no coincidence that I haven’t made a thing outside of sweaters there since I started 18 East. Consistency of make, attention to detail and overall production quality pale in comparison to every other place I’ve ever made anything. Though to be clear, when I say this I’m speaking about industrialized production, not artisan goods like bespoke tailoring.

Any views on production quality in India or South East Asia?
 

NickPollica

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Any views on production quality in India or South East Asia?

Hahaha - this is a joke right? I currently make 95% of my collection in India. First prototypes very often come in 100% correct with no changes. It’s the first time I’ve been genuinely happy with product since RL. Our suppliers can handle larger scale if we grow but are ok with us being small right now. The majority of our fabrics are woven by hand. We can do things in India that I’ve never been able to do anywhere, and because we don’t wholesale we can actually make them affordable.
 

NickPollica

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I get the impression that sometimes clothing enthusiasts undervalue the gains you get from economies of scale. As you increase the number of production units, your cost goes down, so you can drive down the retail price of your product. Sometimes that means you can also offer the customer more value for their money. Some of these companies have amazing design teams. Or they may have relationships with certain mills or other suppliers. Companies such as RL and J. Crew are really good at keep sizing consistent despite the huge number of SKUs.

But then it seems like sometimes mass-market retailers have less interesting designs because they have to move more units. If you have to sell a ton of units, maybe you can't make some weird looking jacket. Or use indigo that will crock, etc.

Three of my favorite brands -- RRL, PRL, and J. Crew -- are all mass-market retailers. I think J. Crew is incredible, even if the clothes are pretty basic. You can get a really good field jacket there for like $200. I can't remember what PRL field jackets cost, but they're even cooler.

The J. Crew one has a bunch of cool pockets, a drawstring waist, a hidden hood, a stand-up collar, etc. PRL does different versions, but the one I own has a nice wash, some weird distressing detail on the arm where it looks like someone removed a patch, etc. I think of quality in clothing more in terms of design and production execution.

Also, think that consumers would be better off if they stopped obsessing over quality and value, and just attuned themselves more to what looks good and gives them joy. They should buy stuff with "emotional durability," which is more meaningful than "construction durability" at this point. I kind of hate it when clothing -- and especially the fashion end of clothing -- gets distilled to these metrics because it feels like we're talking about computer equipment.

We covered this when J. Crew filed, but the notion that their clothing is “low quality” makes me insane. Most designer clothing made in Europe low quality. More often than not it’s expensive not because it’s better made, but because that designer is only making a handful of pieces.

I should also clarify that when I say these things I’m usually taking about quality of make and finishing, not textile. American textiles basically don’t exist but European textiles are still beautifully designed and produced.
 

clee1982

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I agree with this, very much. Sometimes it seems some guys regard clothing as an engineering problem. Execute to pre-defined specifications at best price/quality ratio. This is maybe part insecurity in their own sense of aesthetics, part the same deal mentality that drives sales culture.

The only time durability has been an issue for me was when I bought a pair of fast fashion corduroy trousers ten years ago (they lasted three wears).

though outside enthusiast, isn't that THE approach (quality to value ratio) for guys to buy clothe in general? Like I can see after a few years, people who like clothe move aesthetics first, then fit, finally construction (with a bare minimal bar, like it has to be half canvassed, it has to be goodyear welt, or even blake, whatever flows)
 
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