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Discussions about the fashion industry thread

Shirtmaven

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While in general this may not be true, it not a totally false statement.

I've toured factories overseas using the same processes on $40 denim and $150 denim. I've seen laundries in LA using the same processes on $40 denim as $250 denim.

This of course doesn't mean fiber content is the same.
needle work is somewhat standardized on jeans. there are way to cut some corners 5 beltloops as opposed to 7. zippers and rivets will vary. and expensive jeans have much more work of hand sanding.
 

Shirtmaven

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Looks like PVH is selling IZOD, Van Heusen, Arrow, and Geoffrey Beene to Authentic Brands Group:
PVH to sell Izod, Van Heusen and other labels to Authentic Brands for $220M | Retail Dive

I just wonder how will IZOD be differentiated from Nautica. Will it be similar to how PVH differentiated IZOD from Tommy Hilfiger?
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the only thing that will differentiate will be the embroidery and labels.
I would guess the same design team will work on both lines

all will be made in the same crappy automated factories
 

cb200

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Quality is nothing to do with country or origin.
If quality is an objective fidelity to some industry metrics and measureable standards this can be true. If quality is a subjective emergent property in the mind of the consumer of a product this isn't necessarily true.
 

Shirtmaven

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from a manufacturing standpoint.
quality can often be based on hours of labor to create the item. skilled hand work vs machine work, vs computerized machine work. the components also determine quality.
imagine the difference between a cheap computerized machine made charles Trywitt shirt made with low cost cotton. vs an Italian hand made shirt made with superfine high count fabric fabric from Riva.. most men could not fathom spending $400-500 on a shirt when they can get 3 for $99
 

Nobilis Animus

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Many European and American factories are filled with Asian immigrants, who worked at the same high volume, low quality factories in China you're chiding. The quality that is produced has nothing to do with the capabilities of the factory/workers, but rather is based on what the CUSTOMER (brand) wants. They adjust to the customers needs.

Made in Europe isn't higher quality because they're all dedicated uncompromissing artisans, but the reality is real estate and labor costs are prohibitively expensive, thus making it unprofitable to produce anything aside from high end or luxury goods.
Can you point me to where I said anything about the capabilities of Chinese workers being inferior? No of course you can't, because I did not say it.

I have several items made in Hong Kong that are all very high quality. These were made by Chinese workers too, so clearly they are capable of making good products. In the mid-20th century, Japanese and West German goods were considered subpar because of their bad materials and corner-cutting when compared to USA-made items. Nowadays Made in Japan/Germany carries an excellent reputation.

It's obviously possible to produce junk in Europe too, but as you just pointed out: This isn't happening because it costs too much. So naturally that kind of production goes on in Asian countries mostly, who make things according to what the CUSTOMER wants.

So what am I, as an individual consumer, going to notice as a result? I'm going to correctly deduce that a 'made in China/Bangladesh' label denotes poor quality - not because of capability, but because of focus. And I'll be right 99% of the time. This can change dramatically in the future, and I expect it definitely will, but as of right now the things being produced in China are inferior quality. The aritsans are capable of much more.
 

dieworkwear

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I'm going to correctly deduce that a 'made in China/Bangladesh' label denotes poor quality - not because of capability, but because of focus. And I'll be right 99% of the time.
I've never understood why people read quality off of a country-of-origin label. If you have the garment in front of you, can't you just read it off the garment itself?

BTW, Robert Schooler did a study in 1965 where he had 200 students evaluate fabric swatches. All of the swatches were identical except in one way: he gave them fictitious country of origin labels. So it would be this swatch card of a 80/20 cotton-linen fabric, and the card would say "made in Mexico" or "made in Costa Rica" or "made in El Salvador," and so forth. He then asked the students to evaluate the quality of these fabrics.

Unsurprisingly, the students saw differences that weren't there. These views were often colored by the student's bias about that country.

This experiment has been repeated many different times and has spawned a whole field about how people treat country-of-origin labels. People don't treat them rationally (surprise). You can read the original study here:



This is a literature review:

 
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clee1982

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I don't really have a complain with a lot of the made in China RL and I would say most of the newer handwelt made in China *edit shoe punch the English shoes at same price range.

Even if you're talking about volume manufacture, do you really go hum this W&B chino is crap that will fall apart, some of the JCrew outlet stuff can be crap, but like lots of volume production are pretty good.
 

Nobilis Animus

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All the talk about China only being a place for low cost, low quality garments is only based on some skewed view about class and nothing else. Factories based in China have been perfecting making clothing for decades and with the influx of brands wanting cheaper but still quality manufacturing, these factories have been pushed to excel. Take Visvim making almost $2k boots in China.

Also, almost every luxury brand makes plenty of products in China. Hand bags, shoes, you name it.

Quality is nothing to do with country or origin.
What does class have to do with it? It's not like artisans in any country are classier than any others.

Luxury brands absolutely do make things in China sometimes, but they are always the diffusion lines or products like hoodies, sneakers, etc., that are meant to scoop up money from people who can't afford their better items. You'll never find an Hermes handbag, Chanel perfume, or Dior dress made in China.

Country of origin has become a shorthand for quality, yes. Even if I agreed with you, it is becoming obvious that the vast majority of everyone else does not - hence the suffering of these markets.
 

cb200

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Most people use quality as a subjective term. It's emotive like this is good - Yay! But can't tell you what makes it so from an objective stand point. Do consumers who say this is a quality product measure a sample of the fabric to check the GSM or whip out a ruler to measure the sample against the tech pack? Check the stiches per inch? No they don't - it's subjective and emotive and country of origin get put into the judgment.
 

Nobilis Animus

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I've never understood why people read quality off of a country-of-origin label. If you have the garment in front of you, can't you just read it off the garment itself?

BTW, Robert Schooler did a study in 1965 where he had 200 students evaluate fabric swatches. All of the swatches were identical except in one way: he gave them fictitious country of origin labels. So it would be this swatch card of a 80/20 cotton-linen fabric, and the card would say "made in Mexico" or "made in Costa Rica" or "made in El Salvador," and so forth. He then asked the students to evaluate the quality of these fabrics.

Unsurprisingly, the students saw differences that weren't there. These views were often colored by the student's bias about that country.

This experiment has been repeated many different times and has spawned a whole field about how people treat country-of-origin labels. People don't treat them rationally (surprise). You can read the original study here:



This is a literature review:

I don't know what to tell you, buddy. The differences in quality between things from China vs Europe is so stark that I can visually identify it on a clothing rack - without reading any labels.

Once again: Made in China need not denote poor quality, but it certainly does so today. There's a reason the public is turning its back on that kind of production.
 

Nobilis Animus

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Most people use quality as a subjective term. It's emotive like this is good - Yay! But can't tell you what makes it so from an objective stand point. Do consumers who say this is a quality product measure a sample of the fabric to check the GSM or whip out a ruler to measure the sample against the tech pack? Check the stiches per inch? No they don't - it's subjective and emotive and country of origin get put into the judgment.
To a large extent, yes it is subjective. It's the reason stories like 'a perfume being inspired by a particular dashing stranger from 1930 and produced ever since' are so appealing to customers. Beyond a certain point of physical quality in materials and construction methods, the experience is one of art.
 

XWT

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Once again: Made in China need not denote poor quality, but it certainly does so today. There's a reason the public is turning its back on that kind of production.
I don't know man. I try not to buy bullshit products anyway, so I'll have to trust your word as many of them as you say are Made in China. In the realm of good products, you'll find Made in China stuff that is really really good like Flame Panda boots (god tier MTO boot maker), MotivMFG (fashion forward upscale RTW), Bronson MFG (Repro workwear), Grant Stone (real good RTW footwear), and and some others.

I'm gonna go out on a limb there and say that your lack of willingness to judge Made in China products for what they are stems from your lack of experience with good Made in China products.
 

Nobilis Animus

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Does this include Dior t-shirts?
You're so predictable. But being unsure of a particular item once in a while isn't evidence of a lack of ability, a notion which you really should have picked up in grad school, if you ever actually went.
 

Nobilis Animus

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I don't know man. I try not to buy bullshit products anyway, so I'll have to trust your word as many of them as you say are Made in China. In the realm of good products, you'll find Made in China stuff that is really really good like Flame Panda boots (god tier MTO boot maker), MotivMFG (fashion forward upscale RTW), Bronson MFG (Repro workwear), Grant Stone (real good RTW footwear), and and some others.

I'm gonna go out on a limb there and say that your lack of willingness to judge Made in China products for what they are stems from your lack of experience with good Made in China products.
And you'd probably be right. I have experience with enough Made in Hong Kong items to know that the Chinese can produce great quality. My experience, however, is that the vast majority of what is exported to Canadian and American markets is not at that level. It's cheaper stuff that isn't even close to luxury brand items (the ones that aren't MIC).

And it really doesn't even matter what I think. The fact is that the general public doesn't know about those other Made in China brands either, or else wants to support more local businesses, so this is why (IMO) they're not shopping at retailers who mostly produce in that country. The middle market could fix this by actually commissioning good stuff from Chinese factories, but they won't. They're just going to kill themselves through greed, and I'm sure you'll forgive me if I don't shed a tear.
 

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