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Discussions about the fashion industry thread

Nobilis Animus

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It feels like you're making this about price and I don't understand why. I mean, didn't you just spend the whole day asking people on the internet if the Dior shirt you found is legit or a cheap rip-off? Apparently, you can't tell the difference between a $750 t-shirt and some cheapo $20 screen print.

People use different factories for different reasons. Some factories are better at producing certain things than others. In some factories, you can have a wide range of products being produced at different price points. And even within the same category/ price tier, products being produced may differ in terms of fit, design, trims, details, etc. My only point is that clothes from the same factory are not always easily reduced like this. It's not about high-end clothing vs cheap clothing.
When I wrote 'cheapness' it was not in relation to price. To invert a value statement you also have invert the relation of value, or else you are still operating in the original parameters.

Something cheaply made is made with as many corners cut as possible, while still preserving brand appeal. That sounds like the spitting image of the J Crew crew to me.
 
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dieworkwear

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Besides, you're literally arguing that there are significant differences in... what? Factory-made clothes from Bangladesh? I'm sorry, but I don't think anyone believes that for a second.
I can't help but feel like you're just making some weird class argument here and/ or saying that you're fancy or something.

Anyway, I've handled clothes from the same Chinese suit factory, and they felt different. They were made with different patterns and levels of handwork. It depends on what the store wants.

Antonio has extensive experience working with factories in both low- and high-cost countries. I assume he's too busy to weigh in on this sort of thing but those interested can just do a search on his user profile using keywords such as China or India.
 

Nobilis Animus

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I can't help but feel like you're just making some weird class argument here and/ or saying that you're fancy or something.
And I don't get why you keep ascribing things to me that I've never said. It's not like buying something made other than in the Far East requires a new income bracket.

Companies that put 'designed in NYC' and 'made in China' on the same garment do not have quality uppermost in mind. It's your prerogative to believe otherwise, of course. But it's a bit rich that you don't see the actual class argument you're making by ignoring things like forced labour and shoddy workmanship, so long as it's not Americans doing that kind of work.
 
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dieworkwear

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And I don't get why you keep ascribing things to me that I've never said. It's not like buying something made other than in the Far East requires a new income bracket.

Companies that put 'designed in NYC' and 'made in China' on the same garment do not have quality uppermost in mind. It's your prerogative to believe otherwise, of course. But it's a bit rich that you don't see the actual class argument you're making by ignoring things like forced labour and shoddy workmanship, so long as it's not Americans doing that kind of work.

I think I'll believe the guy who won a CFDA award

The best quality I've ever personally witnessed from industrialized production has been out of China with RL, by a long shot. I've never seen Italian or American (particularly NY, which is expensive and mediocre at best unless you are on the factory floor every day) production come even close to what Polo/RRL does out of China. I think 45 rpm likely makes the highest quality clothing period and they run a ton out of China (alongside Japan and India).

As for costing, Aime wholesales, so they have to build in that extra margin. That's why it costs what it costs, it's really that simple.
We’ve talked about this before, but they use a lot of the same suppliers. The Rugby chino was made in the same factory as the J.Crew chino and it was more expensive only because J. Crew ordered thousands more. The call outs of bad quality always highlight to me just how little most people know about what real quality actually looks like. J. Crew is one of Loro Piana’s largest vendors.
We covered this when J. Crew filed, but the notion that their clothing is “low quality” makes me insane. Most designer clothing made in Europe low quality. More often than not it’s expensive not because it’s better made, but because that designer is only making a handful of pieces.

I should also clarify that when I say these things I’m usually taking about quality of make and finishing, not textile. American textiles basically don’t exist but European textiles are still beautifully designed and produced.
 

Nobilis Animus

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I think I'll believe the guy who won a CFDA award
Maybe that's the problem. I think I'll keep my clothes from Europe and NYC, thanks. I can't believe this is even a topic of debate, tbh. If that guy thinks J Crew isn't low quality, then he's out to lunch - to put it lightly. The fact that Rugby is made in the same place is a blight on Rugby, not a boost to J Crew.

Do you actually have any examples of something MIC that's better than from Europe? Feel free to quote a friend.
 

dieworkwear

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Do you actually have any examples of something MIC that's better than from Europe? Feel free to quote a friend.
I think RRL's handknit cardigans are the best in their class. They are made in China.

then he's out to lunch - to put it lightly.
Maybe when he comes back, you can ask him if your Dior t-shirt is real.
 

Nobilis Animus

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I think RRL's handknit cardigans are the best in their class. They are made in China.



Maybe when he comes back, you can ask him if your Dior t-shirt is real.
Have you ever even worn a handknit cardigan from England or Scotland before? That's a rhetorical question.

The t-shirt is fake, but that shouldn't deter him apparently, so you just let him know that it's his for $200. But USD - the treasury hasn't yet caught up on the latest theory of quality, you see.
 

IJReilly

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My favorite cardigan is a knitted double breasted from Camoshita. My first thought when I put it on was “wow the Japanese are sooo skilled”. Then I saw that it was made in China. Killed some of the romance, but I can’t deny the quality.

I buy a lot of simple basics from H&Ms brand Arket. The quality to price ratio is incredible, and everything is made in various low cost countries. I will say that a lot of the details on the merino knits are not as nice as what you get on made in Italy garments, which cost about four times as much.
 

clee1982

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If you compare volume maker in China vs volume maker in Europe then would just say I can’t tell difference these days.

As regard to labor condition, easy to make general statement, but with the way wage rise (yoy over 10% for more than a decade) in China most costal “low value” manufactures has problem attract people instead. I’m sure there are still abuse but it’s not what you think.

Now there is the Xinjiang issue, though it has estimated force worker of 100k? China textile industry employee like 10 to 20 million people? It could be clustered within a few or more vertical sliced (or a mix of both) but I think the proportion again means it’s not something like say jcrew is using 50% force labor across its manufacturers partner in crappy condition.
 

Nbarbar

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My favorite cardigan is a knitted double breasted from Camoshita. My first thought when I put it on was “wow the Japanese are sooo skilled”. Then I saw that it was made in China. Killed some of the romance, but I can’t deny the quality.

I buy a lot of simple basics from H&Ms brand Arket. The quality to price ratio is incredible, and everything is made in various low cost countries. I will say that a lot of the details on the merino knits are not as nice as what you get on made in Italy garments, which cost about four times as much.
Arket is incredible value. Didn’t realise they were owned by H&M
 

BlakeRVA

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Maybe that's the problem. I think I'll keep my clothes from Europe and NYC, thanks. I can't believe this is even a topic of debate, tbh. If that guy thinks J Crew isn't low quality, then he's out to lunch - to put it lightly. The fact that Rugby is made in the same place is a blight on Rugby, not a boost to J Crew.

Do you actually have any examples of something MIC that's better than from Europe? Feel free to quote a friend.
Many European and American factories are filled with Asian immigrants, who worked at the same high volume, low quality factories in China you're chiding. The quality that is produced has nothing to do with the capabilities of the factory/workers, but rather is based on what the CUSTOMER (brand) wants. They adjust to the customers needs.

Made in Europe isn't higher quality because they're all dedicated uncompromissing artisans, but the reality is real estate and labor costs are prohibitively expensive, thus making it unprofitable to produce anything aside from high end or luxury goods.
 

winston86dit

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All the talk about China only being a place for low cost, low quality garments is only based on some skewed view about class and nothing else. Factories based in China have been perfecting making clothing for decades and with the influx of brands wanting cheaper but still quality manufacturing, these factories have been pushed to excel. Take Visvim making almost $2k boots in China.

Also, almost every luxury brand makes plenty of products in China. Hand bags, shoes, you name it.

Quality is nothing to do with country or origin.
 

jaaz16

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Yeah, there’s definitely some slippage here between “it costs more because it was made by superiors artisans” and “it costs more because of labor costs/exploitation, land value etc.”

Here’s another way to think about it: Is there less/as much/more variation in quality produced by Chinese factories than quality across brands? In my experience, consistent with what others have said here and previously, there’s at least as much variation among “made in China” pieces as “made in China vs made in [whereever]”. I’ve got awesome stuff from Chinese factories and some junk; I’ve got awesome stuff made in the USA and some junk. The relevant variation is across brand (and maybe specific factory? I don’t know enough to say), not country of origin, and all of this is only somewhat correlated with cost.
 

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