Discussions about the fashion industry thread

[dieworkwear]

i admit i kind of like that the photo was modeled after that famous jack nicholson pic. i assume it was taken for something else and he posted it cause it was apt.

 

[Fuuma]

i mean, trade with poor countries doesn't mean exploitation. it's not just sweatshops vs fair trade. normal trade relations can be mutually beneficial.

also, italian made is going to be inherently more expensive than made in vietnam, but it doesn't have to be cucinelli. cucinelli is just a fashion brand like any other high end designer. but it's beige and for rich dads.




this book is just marketing. it's not any different from the stories about his little cashmere hamlet and photos of him in all-white spaces with a sport coat swept up at the quarters.

tons of brands do this. A&S, Rubinacci, E. Marinella, etc all have vanity books. You pay some writer about $20k to write the copy, maybe about the same to a photographer to take photos. Then you either self-publish or get a publishing house to print it. you buy a bunch of copies yourself and give it to important clients and visiting "journalists." maybe a journalist will also do a book "review." that ends up being free press and more churning of a good story. it's like how presidential candidates write biographies.

Why do you talk like an IMF brochure? I know you don't believe that crap.

 

[Fuuma]

As someone who lives in one of the countries many think are being "exploited" and knows the owners of (and has visited) many maquilas, I would add 2 things:

First, there is a LOT more production happening in these factories than people realize. Most of it is secret, much of it comes from Asia, and laws governing "country of origin" are full of loopholes. For example, 70% of a high end luxury brand's product will be constructed here in a factory owned by an Asian business. That product is then sent to the Asian factory for another 15% work. And then sent to Italy for the final 15%. Thanks to the growing number of zona francas in the region (and corrupt customs agencies), this is becoming much more common today than it was even 5 years ago.

Second, the concept of "exploitation" is complicated (duh). There are of course all the political and socio-economic variables to discuss. But something that rarely gets mentioned is a particular country's ability to improve its reputation (and eventually its prices) with potential customers as a producer of quality goods. "Made in Italy" almost automatically allows a brand to raise its prices, even if only 15% or 20% of the product was actually made there. "Made in Honduras" (for example), in the minds of most consumers, still reads as "cheap". Even if the workers there are the ones doing the bulk of the work on a particular luxury product. For obvious reasons, the brand and the primary manufacturing contractor want to keep the work they did a secret.

It's a dynamic of the whole outsourcing model that frustrates more than a few factory owners and designers here.

Made in Italy requires a very high % to be made in Italy, basically 100% without weaving for garments.

 

[dieworkwear]

Why do you talk like an IMF brochure? I know you don't believe that crap.

I do and don't. My main job is in economic research and consulting. I don't think economic development theory is very well captured by popular punditry (not to say that you only read pundits, but pundits often like to frame econ development theories as all good or bad). So the IMF is all good or all bad, when there are nuanced angles to this.

 

[Fuuma]

I do and don't. My main job is in economic research and consulting. I don't think economic development theory is very well captured by popular punditry (not to say that you only read pundits, but pundits often like to frame econ development theories as all good or bad). So the IMF is all good or all bad, when there are nuanced angles to this.

I don't read pundits, I hate editorials of all kinds...

As for IMF sure better than 90s but that is not saying much...

 

[JohnAAG]

Made in Italy requires a very high % to be made in Italy, basically 100% without weaving for garments.

Simply not true. And I've been to the maquilas and worked first hand with the owners of the factories where it happens. As I said before, the proliferation of zona francas, and the number of factories operating within these zones, means that production can be "off-shored" without the typical paper trail that usually accompanies "country of origin" legal requirements. In most cases, operating in these zones is for tax purposes (for example, shipping companies or contact centers owned by U.S. companies that want to avoid having to create a legal entity in the country or having their local employees be subject to IRS taxation or filling out endless W8-BEN forms). But for manufacturers, it is not at all rare that the purpose is to keep the work they do in that country for a specific brand a secret.

Believe me, the import, export and customs laws in these "exploited" countries matter just as much, if not more, than the laws of the country that's home to a particular brand's home office. I'm not saying every high end luxury brand does this. But it is more common that most people know.

 

[Fuuma]

Simply not true. And I've been to the maquilas and worked first hand with the owners of the factories where it happens. As I said before, the proliferation of zona francas, and the number of factories operating within these zones, means that production can be "off-shored" without the typical paper trail that usually accompanies "country of origin" legal requirements. In most cases, operating in these zones is for tax purposes (for example, shipping companies or contact centers owned by U.S. companies that want to avoid having to create a legal entity in the country or having their local employees be subject to IRS taxation or filling out endless W8-BEN forms). But for manufacturers, it is not at all rare that the purpose is to keep the work they do in that country for a specific brand a secret.

Believe me, the import, export and customs laws in these "exploited" countries matter just as much, if not more, than the laws of the country that's home to a particular brand's home office. I'm not saying every high end luxury brand does this. But it is more common that most people know.

empirical experience vs legal framework

but yeah

 

[JohnAAG]

empirical experience vs legal framework

but yeah

Sure. And it's incredibly rare that companies exploit loopholes in international legal frameworks to lower costs and then try and keep it a secret.

But yeah ...

How about instead of putting the burden of proof on me, you show me some evidence that every one of your precious "100% made in Italy" designer pieces that's sold in every airport boutique was actually 100% made in Italy?

Get back to me when you've got that. I won't hold my breath.

 

[Fuuma]

Sure. And it's incredibly rare that companies exploit loopholes in international legal frameworks to lower costs and then try and keep it a secret.

But yeah ...

How about instead of putting the burden of proof on me, you show me some evidence that every one of your precious "100% made in Italy" designer pieces that's sold in every airport boutique was actually 100% made in Italy?

Get back to me when you've got that. I won't hold my breath.

i'm not arguing to hum let's not belabour the point.

 

[JohnAAG]

i'm not arguing to hum let's not belabour the point.

Agreed. I hope you have a great weekend.

 

[Bromley]

 

[dieworkwear]

nice vice clip on round two. imo, shows the power of 1) not having a commodified item (you can only get this in store), 2) keeping on that old "tastemaker" role of retailing, and 3) using social media to build community and help spread ideas/ stories.

 

[sushijerk]

I'm a big fan of Sean but I think it's a bit deceptive for this video to categorize his business as experienced based vintage taste-making versus what the actual volume of what it is, which is a convenient middle man between resellers and hypebeast teens. Maybe it's because I've never been to the vintage store (still not open in NY)?

 

[Gus]

Jay Fielden steps down as Esquire editor

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/business/media/esquires-editor-fielden-hearst-magazines.html

I had high hopes for Jay. I'm kind of sorry to see him go but I can't say the magazine lived up to it's potential. The world does need a quality men's magazine of style and lifestyle with an evolving point-of-view. My guess is that in order to attract the big dollar advertisers (international fashion brands, etc.) you end up having to chase a certain mass market mentality rather than seeking out the new, cool and independent aspects of lifestyle that may never achieve big bucks status.

Even the Esquire Black Book has become fairly lame in the last couple years. All it features are the big international brands. It is as though the writers never left a few blocks of Manhattan to seek out style and trends. Too bad. I used to enjoy it.

 

[SimonC]

They have had some good editorial content, but it’s sat in the midst of a morass of adverts and advertorials and the transition between the two is never handled well.

I would honestly rather pay more for content that stood out for authenticity and independence of thought from end to end, than something where I get revulsed by the overt consumerism by the mid-point.