Dinner Jacket/Tuxedo

[hineygate]

I recently purchased my first bespoke suit here in London. I am very happy with it and would now like to get a bespoke dinner jacket. Any of you out there have any suggestions as to any particular things I should ask for or pay attention to when ordering my dinner jacket?

 

[Nantucket Red]

When in doubt, consult the ultimate thread on the subject over at Devil's Island.

http://www.filmnoirbuff.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=334

 

[Sator]

Originally Posted by Nantucket Red

Devil's Island.

Watch out or you'll end up in the inane post thread

 

[Manton]

hineygate, there are only a handful of truly "classic" styles. Which are truly classic and which are not arouse significant passion and debate. For instance, we've been debating the propriety of notched lapes on a DJ for five years, with no resolution in site.

First, since you are in London, I recommend against a wing collar shirt. The English long ago relegated that to white tie, even though the etiquette books my still say it is "correct" with black tie. I recommend a marcella shirt (that is, turndown collar with pique collar, cuffs and bib). It's a bit smarter than the more common pleated front shirt. If you do go the latter route, a few deep pleats look much more elegant that the more common version with lots of tiny little pleats.

Then you have to decide whether you want to play the jacket itself absolutely safe, or do something more adventurous. There are strong arugments either way. You can conclude, because I'm only doing this once and it's going to be expensive, I want the safest thing possible. Or you can conclude that because it's bespoke, you don't want something that you could get RTW (though made better and better fitting to be sure). That's something only you can decide.

If you want to play it safe, get SB one button peak. I don't want to re-open the notch controversy. However, wherever one falls on that controversy, it is a fact that peak is less controversial. We argue about the propriety of notch ad nauseum but never about peak. Everyone agrees that peak is a classic.

If you get a one-button SB peak, I would definitely get a vest. Formal vests are much classier than cummerbunds. Vests can be hard to come by RTW, but since you are ordering the suit, there is no reason to skip it save cost, and the cost of the upcharge will be marginal compared to the total price of the suit. In hot weather you can skip the vest and wear a cummerbund.

Slightly more adventurous would be 6x2 DB peak. This is also a classic. It is so common in London that it is hardly more adventurous than SB peak, but perhaps a little more so. The nice thing is, you don't need a vest or cummerbund, ever. If you like DB suits, this would be a good way to go.

Shawl would be more adventurous still. Personally, I don't have a great fondness for SB shawl. It strikes me as sort of a hybrid. I think, but don't really know, that SB shawl is also "American" and not really seen much in London. Certainly, I almost never see it. It is common enough over here.

Better would be DB shawl. This is an absolute classic, but nonetheless rare enough to be really striking. I would get this 4x1, reminiscent of a smoking jacket. 6X2 shawl looks a bit busy. In fact, if I ever do get another DJ, this is what I will get.

Color can be black or midnight blue. Black is safe. Midnight blue has a richness that black lacks. I don't entirely buy the argument that it's "blacker than black" (something I first came across in Flusser). It nearly always looks blue to me. Yet I admit that in certain light, looking at swatches, I can sometimes have a hard time telling the difference. But (for instance) when I was at A&S last January, John Hitchcock was cutting a DJ and had the cloth laid out. I could tell at an instant that it was blue.

If it were me, I would get blue. I like the richness of it, and I like the fact that it's just a little "different" than the average black DJ.

 

[Sator]

Originally Posted by Manton

If you want to play it safe, get SB one button peak. Everyone agrees that peak is a classic.

Sage words from Manton.

I vote for the elegance of classical simplicity. I also like plain black for the same reason. Although that said dark blue as a colour for evening dress has a history which dates back to way before the Duke of Windsor. Still, black is simple and absolutely classic. Ditto for opera pumps.

I would recommend the H Lesser formal book to choose the fabric from. The alternative is the H&S formal book. I am sure Manton will recommend others books but I only have ready access to these. A 13 Oz barathea would be a good choice. Pick the heaviest weight that you think you will be comfortable with. Fill your ears with wax if the 'Super' wool sirens call out to you.

 

[Manton]

Lesser has three different weaves -- barathea, twill and miniature herringbone -- in two colors each -- black and midnight blue -- in two weights each -- 12 and 14 ounces. The quality and colors are incomparable. But some will find even the 12 ounces too hot considering that most black tie events will be indoors and climate controlled.

I would put the Smith's formal wear book ahead of H&S. The colors and weaves are similar to the Lesser book, but the weights go down to 9/10 as I recall.

 

[Sator]

Originally Posted by Manton

I would put the Smith's formal wear book ahead of H&S.
Gee I wish Smith had an Ausse distributor. That said, the H&S formal book is one of their best ones methinks. And anybody stuck with choosing from that one can't go too far wrong.

 

[ortolan]

I must respectfully disagree with the assertion to get the heaviest weight wool you can bear. Get the lightest, most elegant wool you think will hold up to wear. If you are actively mingling with the ladies, or seated in the opera house when they don't turn on the AC, you will be sweating, and I am told that a gentleman is never allowed to sweat unless he is in a spa sauna.

Anyhow, I wish I had the time to get a bespoke dinner jacket. I did get a MTM Kiton dinner jacket, single button, peaked, custom lapel, grossgrain(?) on the waist band in case I want to wear it sans cummerbund or vest. I chose their black super 150s, lined. It is double vented. My sportsjackets have texture and are thicker, so are not fully lined. You may wish to choose an unlined jacket if you go to heavier weight wool; for very light wool you may consider full lining for durability and draping, but I do not have enough experience to be dogmatic about it. I am not sold on the super 150s; Kiton has nice super 150s, but if I do it again, I might choose a slight bit of silk or texture, to avoid the business suit look.

Since I am slim, I chose a single button peaked lapel jacket. It is not the most dashing, but I don't think it is a style I will ever regret choosing. When you see your tailor, make sure you check that the lapel width and style are appropriate on your figure. This is the only time you can get a single button jacket without looking vaguely feminine (in my opinion) so enjoy it. Get four buttons on the sleeve (there was a whole thread on this recently), working buttonholes, but probably do not overlap them since the tux buttons are thick.

I guess you're going full bespoke, why not put side tab buckles on your pants since you won't be putting belt loops, then you can ditch your thurston braces. More interior pockets for your fountain pen, or for your slim cellphone? I probably wouldn't choose anything with interior buttons that could show up on pressing.

Wish you the best. And, I will pass you the recommendation from my haberdasher when he outfitted me and measured the location for the lapel button hole (if you choose to put one on such a smooth surface; there is also a boutonniere loop in back), don't put a flower in your lapel button hole without making sure it is protected (there are many ways). It will stain.

-- ortolan

 

[LabelKing]

Single-breasted peak lapels, wide, and with grosgrain details. Besom self-edged pockets.

White vest with a white marcella shirt with Two stud-holes--nothing says ugly like too many cheap studs--and a high detachable wing collar. Butterfly bow-tie, sized, and preferably made from the same materials as the lapels.

 

[A Y]

Originally Posted by ortolan

Get the lightest, most elegant wool you think will hold up to wear. If you are actively mingling with the ladies, or seated in the opera house when they don't turn on the AC, you will be sweating, and I am told that a gentleman is never allowed to sweat unless he is in a spa sauna.

I have a 15milmil15 Zegna DJ, and I will perspire if I do some moderate physical activity (eg. dancing), so even super light wools won't prevent that.

It is double vented.

Note to the original poster: DJs should never be vented.

I guess you're going full bespoke, why not put side tab buckles on your pants since you won't be putting belt loops, then you can ditch your thurston braces.

I wouldn't advise this. I've had a pair of pants whose side tabs I had to use for a while because the tailor forgot to sew in the brace buttons, and the difference and improvement in drape when I could finally use braces is dramatic.

--Andre

 

[Manton]

Originally Posted by Andre Yew

Note to the original poster: DJs should never be vented.

I wouldn't go this far. I don't see anything wrong with a side vented DJ. No vents is more historically "correct" admittedly. I would never, ever get a center vent.

 

[ortolan]

A few comments to the other posters:

1) The winged collar style may be regional. In some areas, it may be considered too much like a waiter; in other areas it may be the pinnacle of elegance. I would talk with friends about this. The solution is to buy a few white tux shirts of differing styles; the cost is minimal compared to the suit.

2) Two studs? Nothing says power as custom made four white gold and diamond studs, with matching white gold white diamond / black diamond cufflinks (encrusted on both sides). My friend wears that with his Brioni tux. I wear my Kiton with Brioni hidden button shirt and silk knots, which I think is understated and clean. My friend calls me a pauper

. The cost of custom made precious metal studs and cufflinks is about the same as a tux. If you go custom, you can make the studs reversible and save on the gold (or platinum). Still I hesitate.

3) I must respectfully disagree with having an unvented tux. Classic or no, double vent the tux if it fits with your style.

4) I have used side tabs on casual pants, but never on a suit or tux. I will defer to Andre's comments that it does not work well, but I would like to try myself. Nevertheless, I think this might be related to waist to hip ratio, and my waist is slimmer than my hips. The Kiton pants do fit very nicely, so maybe all I need is side tabs. I also have thurston braces with the real gut, so I guess I can always stick with them

.


--ortolan

 

[Master Shake]

Originally Posted by Manton

I wouldn't go this far. I don't see anything wrong with a side vented DJ. No vents is more historically "correct" admittedly. I would never, ever get a center vent.
Agree with this 100%. I was at a tailor's shop where he recommended a dinner jacket with a center vent and notch lapels to a client. I shuddered in horror.

 

[Sator]

Originally Posted by ortolan

A few comments to the other posters:

Two studs? Nothing says power as custom made four white gold and diamond studs, with matching white gold white diamond / black diamond cufflinks (encrusted on both sides). My friend wears that with his Brioni tux. I wear my Kiton with Brioni hidden button shirt and silk knots, which I think is understated and clean. My friend calls me a pauper

. The cost of custom made precious metal studs and cufflinks is about the same as a tux. If you go custom, you can make the studs reversible and save on the gold (or platinum). Still I hesitate.

Having the "show of ice" with four diamond studs is the height of gaudiness but goes perfectly well with a Kiton S150 dinner jacket. Don't forget to flash the gold teeth when you smile.

 

[LabelKing]

I have a nice, modest '40s Cartier dress set in yellow gold. The plain, rounded studs are elegant in an understated way.

The set came with two shirt studs, cufflinks, and two collar studs.