Dinner Jacket / Black Tie Advice

[mbnyc]

Gentlemen,

I am new to the forum but have tried to diligently read some old posts, so I hope this isn't a rehash. Like a previous poster, I am getting married this summer. The wedding will be in Spain, about 8 or 9pm in a garden.

Because all of the events will be outdoors (perhaps some will be on a beach) the women will not wear to the floor gownd but something between traditional formal and cocktail attire. Consequently, I have decreed that the attire for men is black tie rather than white tie.

My initial thought was that I would wear an ivory, one button, peak lapel, gross grain dinner jacket with either side vents or no vents. Then I struggled to find any such item. Now I am leaning towards having it custom made. Which leads to two main questions and several smaller questions:

1) Thoughts on an ivory, single breasted, one button, peak lapel, gross grain dinner jacket, specifically:

a) has anyone seen anything similar?
-- i know bogey wore an ivory double breasted shawl but i have never anything quite like this...

b) if such a coat does exist, who makes it?

c) if it doesn't exist, is it because it would be breaking some rule I don't know about?

d) am i running a huge risk of clashing with my bride's gown?

e) does that matter?

Since I have struggled to find such a dinner jacket, I am pretty close to getting it customed and getting a pair of black flat front pants and a black single button peak lapel jacket as well.

After trying on formal wear from: Armani, Brioni, Canali, Gucci, Isaia, Zegna, Hickey Freeman, Paul Stuart, Ralph Lauren, and a few more less memorable suits I have come to the following conclusions:

-- Isaia was the only one button that fit me OTR

-- very few of the others had a single button peak with a button set low enough for my taste.

2) So I am getting close to going custom... or even bespoke. which leads to a rash of questions:

a) what am i buying when i go with different custom or MTM dinner jackets?
-- I get the sense that all i am really buying if I buy an OTR, MTM or custom dinner jacket is a lapel. the pants are relatively standard and a good tailor can make significant changes to the jacket. the lapel seems to be fixed and may be the one element that will define the look of the suit that is fixed -- is this somewhat accurate or crazy?

b) can oxxford recreate most of the lines of an Isaia dinner jacket (ex the lapel shape) or will the lines of italian, english and american suits will be different no matter what i ask for?

c) before i spend $6k on a black peak lapel single button dinner suit, and an accompanying ivory jacket, what should i focus on?

d) is there an advantage to going with a place like oxxford or are there smaller places without all the overhead that can do more for less? e.g. seize sur vingt could do the same suit for less or do it loro piano for the same price as oxxford's standard wool.

e) any custom tailors in the nyc area i should look at as well?

f) before i spend $6 on this should i get a $3k custom jacket w/black pants and then spend $2.7 on an OTR Isaia (and kudos to those of you who got it half off on the net - its out of stock now)

any other advice? i am taking advantage of the situation to spend an egregious amount on clothes but still want to be somewhat fiscal responsibility

 

[Master Shake]

That's quite a bit you've given us to chew on. I'll respond in a limited manner, and leave the rest to the more knowledgable (or indulgent) members here. An ivory (or cream) peak lapel dinner jacket is perfectly acceptable in warmer climates, which should cover Spain. For an example, check out Sean Connery in the pre-title sequence in Goldfinger.

I am in the process of having a dinner suit made for me, and I elected to have mine made at Mr. Ned's (which is a limited bespoke family-run tailoring outfit in New York City) to save some money on an item that will receive relatively little use throughout the years. I just had a fitting earlier today, and it is coming along just splendidly. It is black, not ivory -- although perhaps one day ... Edited: Some more examples

 

[mbnyc]

Thank you Master Shake,
I will check out Goldfinger again -- something I am always looking for an excuse to do!
Best,

 

[Master Shake]

No problem. I just noticed the pics don't show up now for some reason. You can find them at this link, several pictures on the Sean Connery and Roger Moore pages.

http://www.jamesbondmm.co.uk/james-bond.php

 

[The_Foxx]

you might also consider oxxford clothes. not sure if my fave website for online ordering has an ivory dinner jacket (MTM), but they might

www.directclothiers.com

one reason oxxford comes to mind, they have a proper lapel buttonhole (made long enough to actually accomodate a flower), and it will have a flower loop on the back to hold a carnation or whatever you decide to wear. if you decide to have the jacket made to measure, i would say oxxford, ralph lauren purple label, or the tailor of your choice would be good-- just don't have them make you the trousers, which you can easily pick up elsewhere (there are numerous postings on ebay, for example, of purple label, kiton, brioni, and other tux trousers)

also, recommend having a black necktie made by robert talbott. the faille neckties, built to order, are really great.

 

[mbnyc]

The Fox,

Very interesting. I had not thought about picking up different trousers. But I guess not paying $600 for a pair makes a ton of sense. Does that create a matching issue?

Oxxford is my leading candidate (only other real contender is Isaia). I guess one thing I was wondering is if people have a strong view on them. Is it better to spend the money on an unbranded bespoke shop or a great tailor?

Thanks again,

Best,
mbnyc

 

[The_Foxx]

matching-- well, i'm assuming here you're having an ivory colored dinner jacket made, so in that respect you just have to find a pair of black formal trousers. in fact, i just saw a pair of ralph lauren purple label size 33 waist on ebay, but there are probably several (not to mention you could probably find them in a mens store as well, like paul stuart). that might save you some $$ on your cost, because the jacket will be a little pricey. curious, what size jacket do you wear? there might be some things out there i can show on the thread as an example.

the more i think about it, the more i think an oxxford radciffe might be the way to go, if you think direct clothiers online would be an option. bob is great to work with. the radcliff will have a slimmer fit, english looking shoulders, a narrower lapel (perfectly peaked and turned out in grograin or satin silk), you have the option of vents or no vents, length of jacket, functional sleeve buttonholes, and the button stance on that model is at a perfect position, if not slightly higher than you've seen on models you didn't care for.

 

[Concordia]

The advantage of RTW is that you see what you're buying. Oxxford is not necessarily a perfect substitute for Isaia, so try on both. Once you have a model down from a popular maker, you can buy online or over the phone-- assuming you don't get good service from someone local.

Bespoke, once you find a tailor who sees things your way, gives you better fit and any style/pattern you like. If you're a hard fit, or just want certain things in your clothing, it's the only choice.

Your call.

 

[King Francis]

Not to hijack the thread, but since Foxx and others are answering the original poster's questions just fine, let me ask: am I the only one here who prefers shawl collars on dinner jackets? From all of the formalwear threads I've read, it seems the great majority prefer peak lapel dinner jackets, and although my usual preference for hard lines would seem to dictate that I share that preference, I generally like shawl collars more. Maybe they look more elegant or carefree to me, I don't know; or perhaps it's because they're proper on nothing else (besides smoking jackets) and so they seem uniquely formal; or maybe I like the contrast between a lean jacket body and a softly curving collar. I don't know quite what it is. But I wonder -- are there any other shawl collar fans here? (Speaking of Bond, Connery wears a shawl collar jacket near the beginning of Dr. No that I find exemplary.)

 

[Nantucket Red]

I'm also a fan of the shawl collar, but it seems a little leisurely for a wedding. For the average black tie event, I'd go with a shawl, but for a wedding, I'd go with a peak lapel.

 

[mbnyc]

RE: matching yes. I would not dare wear an all ivory dinner jacket unless I was a top pick in the NBA draft. Then it would be a reluctant decision to go with the crowd. But I was thinking I would get a full black suit and an ivory jacket in addition, and was worried that I would not match the two black pieces.

RE: Size I am all over the map. am a 50 in Canali, a 41SL in Paul Stuart and a 44 at armani, paul smith, etc. most other things i bounce between 40-42 R and L.

RE: Oxxford, yes that keep sounding like the answer. especially in ivory.

RE: Shawl. Bogart's double breasted shawl in casablanca is tremendous. I saw a shawl on black tie guide that i liked, because it is deep and full.

http://blacktieguide.com/Classic_Components/Jacket.htm

i think ts is the trickiest look to pull off and if the collar is too thin it looks odd. but that may be because i haven't seen many good one. i onec saw micheal jordan in an exceptional one.


finally i my shoulders are big in relation to my chest and body and i normally need a 6 to 7 inch drop and some additional work done to take in the body. and shawl collared jackets need to be doen impeccably or I run the risk of looking like i am wearing pajamas. but i agree it is a sharp look.

Thank you again

 

[Master Shake]

Originally Posted by mbnyc

But I was thinking I would get a full black suit and an ivory jacket in addition, and was worried that I would not match the two black pieces.
I agree this is the way to go. Even if you lived in Palm Beach or California, I doubt you can have an ivory dinner jacket as your only one. Foxx's idea of getting separate trousers is a very good one if you can find a good pair pretty inexpensively and the cost is negligible to you given that it sounds you also will be wanting a dinner suit in black.

 

[The_Foxx]

i think the shawl collar is just too risky-- especially as your one (or in your case, should you find a tuxedo and an ivory dinner jacket, no more and no less) and only formalwear. the tux is meant to elevate, be sharp, etc. in my opinion, and have the ability to take a flower in the buttonhole-- this all spells peaked lapels in my book, i guess.

given your size possibilities, the oxxford radcliff might work well-- you can simply give them your actual measurements, and the length of the jacket you like best on you, etc.