Differenciating Blake from Welted?

[johnnyblazini]

Some have mentioned that the stiching on the outside of a sole is (or can be)purely ornemental, that being so, how do you differentiate blake construction from welted?

 

[lee_44106]

I look at the insole. If you can see stitching it's Blake.

 

[Roger]

Lee's right. If you look up into the forward part of the insole and see stitching, the shoe is Blake constructed. I think it might be possible that the insole stitching could be covered with a sort of insole cover, in which case you might not see the stitching, but if you can see it, the construction is undoubtedly Blake.

This is because Blake stitching attaches the insole, uppers, and outsole with one stitching step in one location. Welted shoes, on the other hand, require two separate stitchings at different locations: one to attach the upper, insole and welt, and the other to attach the welt to the outsole.

See the drawings below for each method. Blake construction is referred to as McKay (the other name for it) in this presentation:

http://www.stijlforum.nl/viewtopic.php?t=78

 

[johnnyblazini]

Roger, thank you for that link. It is very helpful indeed.

But like you said, Blake or McKay can be covered up... So, on some Blake constructed shoes we can usually be sure they are Blake, but on welted we can never be sure they are actually welted? (manufacturer reputation aside)

 

[Roger]

Originally Posted by johnnyblazini

Roger, thank you for that link. It is very helpful indeed.

But like you said, Blake or McKay can be covered up... So, on some Blake constructed shoes we can usually be sure they are Blake, but on welted we can never be sure they are actually welted? (manufacturer reputation aside)
Well, if you see the stitching in open-channel soles that is obviously outside the uppers, chances are pretty good that they are welted. They could be of Blake/Rapid construction, however. For the most part, the location of the stitching and the particular maker should pretty well tell the story. For example, all Lobb, Edward Green, Crockett & Jones, and most other British shoes will be welted. For the US makers, all Allen-Edmonds and Alden will, I believe, be welted. With the Italian shoes, it's not quite so clear, as they could be welted, Blake, or Blake/Rapid. Marteganis, for example, will look welted (with the outer sole stitch), but will, in fact, be Blake/Rapid (which is just as good as welted, BTW).

Another way to detect welting is to look at the side of the sole and see whether you can make out a separate layer on the top--maybe 2-3 mm. thick. If so, it is likely a welt.

 

[johnnyblazini]

Originally Posted by Roger

Blake/Rapid (which is just as good as welted, BTW).

They are? Could you expand on this?

 

[johnnyblazini]

Originally Posted by Roger

Another way to detect welting is to look at the side of the sole and see whether you can make out a separate layer on the top--maybe 2-3 mm. thick. If so, it is likely a welt.

Can you expand on this also?

 

[Manton]

Looking at the sole from the side, if the shoe is welted, you should be able to spot the seam that denotes the welt from the outsole. The welt will be above (of course) and about 1/3 as thick, or maybe a bit less.

 

[johnnyblazini]

Roger: also, you named a few easy ones. What about, say, Zegna mainline.

 

[johnnyblazini]

Originally Posted by Manton

Looking at the sole from the side, if the shoe is welted, you should be able to spot the seam that denotes the welt from the outsole. The welt will be above (of course) and about 1/3 as thick, or maybe a bit less.

I really wish I understood this. Don't get me wrong, I can kind of picture, but, it isn't a very clear picture..

 

[Manton]

You will just see a barely perceptible line. Remember, the welt and the outsole are two separate pieces of leather sandwiched together tightly. But not so tightly that you can't see the seam.

 

[johnnyblazini]

So, where the sole meets the leather of the shoe on the outside of the shoe? I am looking for a bunch of small repetitive bumps?

I am looking at my AE's right now, and can see a bunch of said small bumps, and I thought this was due to poor finishing...

 

[Manton]

No, not where the sole meets the upper. Below that.

 

[Roger]

Johnny, look at the figure of the Goodyear welted construction. On the far left about halfway down, there is a word in Japanese (the word is "welt") and an arrow pointing to a place in the sole structure. That component indicated by the arrow is the welt. the dividing line that Manton is referring to is about 1/4" below the end of the arrow. So, if you see this division on a sole viewed from the side, chances are pretty good the shoe is welted.

As for your other questions:

1. Blake/Rapid. You can see from the diagrams that there is a lot going on below the uppers with this method of construction--more than with a welted shoe. The rough analog of the welt is the midsole, but the latter runs the whole distance under the upper, not just around the edges like a welt. This produces a very solid shoe bed and one that would make resoling easy (like a welt). In fact, this arrangement is slightly more solid than a welt. One possible disadvantage is that the shoe might have slightly less flexibility than a welted shoe, but that would probably disappear with wear.

2. The "bumps." These are what we call wheeling. This is produced for decorative purposes on the top of welts (and outsoles without a welt), and does not indicate poor finishing.

3. Zegna mainline. I don't know the manufacturer of these shoes, so can't comment on their construction. They could be from this joint venture with Ferragamo, Zefer. If you can look at a shoe close up and don't see this division between a welt and outsole (or midsole and outsole), and, in addition, if the whole sole assembly is quite thin, chances are that the shoe is Blake constructed.

 

[Augusto86]

Originally Posted by Roger

Lee's right. If you look up into the forward part of the insole and see stitching, the shoe is Blake constructed. I think it might be possible that the insole stitching could be covered with a sort of insole cover, in which case you might not see the stitching, but if you can see it, the construction is undoubtedly Blake.

This is because Blake stitching attaches the insole, uppers, and outsole with one stitching step in one location. Welted shoes, on the other hand, require two separate stitchings at different locations: one to attach the upper, insole and welt, and the other to attach the welt to the outsole.

See the drawings below for each method. Blake construction is referred to as McKay (the other name for it) in this presentation:

http://www.stijlforum.nl/viewtopic.php?t=78

Interesting.

I like the link...stijlforum.nl

Are these our hidden Dutch cousins?