deconstructed fashion plate

[bengal-stripe]

Originally Posted by DWFII

If the photo you posted above is what you are referring to, I couldn't agree more.

My "˜sloppy' comment referred to the work in the picture I posted.

More can be seen here:

http://www.styleforum.net/showthread...20#post2923720

Originally Posted by DWFII

The stitching in the photo you posted is appalling. I hope the maker is a student (although that doesn't speak well of the teacher).

Judging by the hand, this is not a young man, although he might be new to hand-welting. I think, he hasn't even cut a proper holdfast: it looks as if the stitches are just buried into the insole.

For those who are not familiar with the term 'holdfast' (or 'feather'), that's how it looks like:

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by Groover

DWF, Could you advise what the likely consequences (once the shoe was completed) would be of a welt stitched in the manner (stitches per inch I refer to) depicted in Bengals photos? Many thanks
As with any seam the point is to come as close as possible to making the two (or more) pieces being joined function as a unit without weakening either piece. In the example above the gap between stitches is, if nothing else, certain to allow more dust debris and moisture into the the shoe. An easy, if not altogether exact, analogy would be between a button fly and a zippered fly.

Or the difference between a piano hinge and two Ace hardware specials. Ask yourself why not make the stitches even longer? On the face of it, it would seem that more stitches per inch would be better...after all, we often stitch the outsole at 10, 12 or even 16 stitches per inch. But again, we need to be careful not to weaken the leather with too many stitches. This is (repeating myself) particularly important when welt stitching because in that case the stitches are being pulled extremely hard. The whole notion of functioning as a unit underscores another reason why hand welting...leather to leather (and of approximately the same temper)...is superior to gemming where you have three different materials with three different tensile strengths, densities, and temper, all being held together by a fourth material--the glue--in a configuration that doesn't really make any attempt to join the various components in a way that they can function as a unit.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by bengal-stripe

My "˜sloppy' comment referred to the work in the picture I posted. More can be seen here: http://www.styleforum.net/showthread...20#post2923720 Judging by the hand, this is not a young man, although he might be new to hand-welting. I think, he hasn't even cut a proper holdfast: it looks as if the stitches are just buried into the insole. For those who are not familiar with the term 'holdfast' (or 'feather'), that's how it looks like:

Bengal, Yes, I'm near-as-nevermind certain you're correct. His "inside" stitches are aloft. Judging from what I know about historical methods, I suspect that he didn't even cut a feather. His stitches are just emerging from the edge of the insole. From what I understand, this is the practice at Colonial Williamsburg and I'm sure it is historically correct although I know that they stitch much closer (more stitches per inch) than is illustrated in your photo. One of the reasons they do it this way...just for general information...is that they use insoles that are so thin (again historically correct) that there is simply no substance available to channel.

 

[furo]

DWFII not sure if you read my last post, but would you consider JB Hill to be in that group of 3-4 factories that still do boots to a high level of quality?

For me it was an awesome experience to see a factory produce an entirely hand made boot.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by furo

DWFII not sure if you read my last post, but would you consider JB Hill to be in that group of 3-4 factories that still do boots to a high level of quality? For me it was an awesome experience to see a factory produce an entirely hand made boot.
Furo, I did indeed read your last post...glad you got to see some of this stuff first-hand. To be honest, I am not all that familiar with J.B. Hill boots. It sounds, from your description, like they are doing good work. The problem is...and I'm not necessarily applying it to Hill...that there are many little quasi-factories along the border that cut costs every bit as relentlessly as the "big" players. The exception being that where they can employ cheap immigrant labour it is often more cost-effective than buying the machinery to replace them. As result you will see this odd combination of good technique and poor materials. Or great fundamentals and a lack of attention to detail. The inseaming that Bengal-Stripe posted above illustrates that point...all the fundamentals are there (although, parenthetically, I did notice a similarity between the "needles" used in Bengal's photo and those being used in the Vass book) but the materials being used as well as the attention to detail are missing.

 

[sully]

[/quote]we often stitch the outsole at 10, 12 or even 16 stitches per inch.

Is this machine or hand stitching ? What is the reason for using different nos of stitches per inch for the outsole.Is it just the craftsmans choice or is there a a manufacturing reason for it.
Its very interesting finding out the details behind good shoemaking.

 

[DWFII]

we often stitch the outsole at 10, 12 or even 16 stitches per inch.

Is this machine or hand stitching ? What is the reason for using different nos of stitches per inch for the outsole.Is it just the craftsmans choice or is there a a manufacturing reason for it.
Its very interesting finding out the details behind good shoemaking.

Hand stitching...maker's choice.

As for reason...one of the things that sets any high end shoe apart from lesser examples is the aesthetics. Part and parcel is a sense of refinement. Even though machine work can be made pretty consistent with little or no effort, one of the distinguishing characteristics of lower end shoes is the coarseness of the sewing on the uppers. The tighter the stitching (up to a point) the more refined the shoe looks.

Similarly on the soles...exposed stitching is not necessary and can be detrimental to the life of the outsole and even the shoe. Yet it is characteristic of lower end manufactured shoes. And such stitching is likely to be no tighter than eight to the inch.

If the maker is hand stitching, a different standard usually applies...an older standard, a more difficult, more refined, more elegant standard. At one time not all that long ago, sixteen stitches to the inch on the welt/outsole was considered "middling" work--commonplace, unexceptional. Today, ten to the inch is probably the new standard for hand work simply because the quality of the leather is so poor by comparison to what was available one-hundred, two-hundred years ago..

 

[shoefan]

Another thing about Bengal's posted picture is that the thread does not appear to be well waxed, perhaps it only uses beeswax. A good shoemaker's 'wax' (not beeswax) will make the two threads 'lock' together in the stitch holes, increasing the strength of the stitch and also increasing water resistance. The wax acts almost like a glue to adhere the two threads to one another.

The absence of an obvious shoemaker's wax is something I note in many handmade shoemaking pictures from numerous makers, including some high-end ones.

 

[Orgetorix]

Originally Posted by youngScholar

The shoe in the top photo has got to be a pair of AEs, given the 360 degree gemming (

) and the black faux leather insole.

It's a picture of gman17's custom shell Strands that he had made on his recent visit to the AE factory.

 

[srivats]

Originally Posted by DWFII

Originally Posted by srivats

^DWFII, can you show us some pictures, or even just simple cartoons explaining the "inside cone" and "straight cone"? I have no idea what you are talking about. I have seen you mention this in other places too, just very curious.

I can show you photos of my lasts...which are all inside cone lasts. But I don't have any straight cone lasts to illustrate the difference.

Suffice it to say that on an inside cone last, the cone of the last--the area that corresponds to the instep of the foot--slants from the top of the cone to the medial (inside) ball joint area. The photo below shows that deflection as a red line superimposed over the cone of the last.

On a straight cone last, the red line would start dead center top of the cone and end dead center forepart of the last.

Hope that answers your question.



Just saw these pics on the shoe damage thread ... RTW made by John Lobb. They are too sleek for my tastes, but they does look to be well made. DFWII, would yoy say that these shoes are made on an 'inside cone' last? Perhaps not as good as your own last above, but maybe better than other RTW that is displayed here?

Originally Posted by Pengranger

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by srivats

Just saw these pics on the shoe damage thread ... RTW made by John Lobb. They are too sleek for my tastes, but they does look to be well made. DFWII, would yoy say that these shoes are made on an 'inside cone' last? Perhaps not as good as your own last above, but maybe better than other RTW that is displayed here?
Sri, I'm not sure I can say without an overhead shot. Sometimes the only way to determine if the shoe is made on an inside cone last is to see the last itself. The shoe tree imposes its own shape to the shoe, one that may not be entirely indicative of the shape of the last. If I had to guess, I'd say "no." But if I was guessing I'd also want to know who made the shoes. If it were John Lobb St. James I'd be more inclined to an inside cone. The inside cone last may fit the foot better but is it harder to machine last. John Lobb St James has a long history of making high quality bespoke shoes by hand. Bed lasters ain't in it. So there would be no need to switch to a straight-cone last. As a general rule of thumb (until proven otherwise) I would inclined to believe that any shoe that was goodyear welted (gemmed) was also machine lasted and therefore on a straight cone last.

 

[janne melkersson]

DW
"As a general rule of thumb (until proven otherwise) I would inclined to believe that any shoe that was goodyear welted (gemmed) was also machine lasted and therefore on a straight cone last."

When I last by hand I put the upper in it's right position by the use of a pincer and five pulls. Since I have some experience by using a machine that lasts shoes I can assure you that the machine also work by five pulls. It has five pincers jaws which hold the upper and the operator look at the shoe the same way as when lasting by hand. By pulling the jaws you get the upper in it's right position and in my father factory they made these five pulls with upper hoisted i.e. with the lasting allowance leveled with the insole and then when the shoe is secured with the five pulls they continued and lasted the heel and carried on with the toe and side.

I believe that the machine it self make a good job if and this is a big if, the operator know what he is doing. I guess that the invention of the straight coned last is more a result of the use of uneducated operators and not becasue of the lasting machines inability.

 

[DWFII]

Janne, I know it can be done, and done well in competent hands. Luchesse made that point in the book "A Lifetime with Boots". But what I was getting at is that one expediency begets another. If we know the maker and we know that the shoes are made in a factory context...where gemming is the rule...we can infer that other machine methods, not requiring a skilled shoemaker, will be used as well, and wherever possible. In other words, it is far more likely that a straight-cone last will be used in a factory where the shoes are machine lasted than in a workshop where a bespoke maker is hand lasting and hand welting.

 

[janne melkersson]

DW,
Sure, I agree that there are many (probably most) factories out there that are making their shoes the way you describe. However, I believe the high end factories that we often talks about here still make their shoes on their old lasts by machine run by experienced workers.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

Does anybody know if Corthay shoes are gemmed?