Deadlifts n' Squats

[Bandwagonesque]

Originally Posted by sonick

But I find if I do that, its tough to get the bar up over my knees coz they're still bent, unless I lean further forward so have enough room for the bar to clear my knees.

Ditto... if I keep my head up and look forward, the bar hits my knees.

I'm off to the gym tomorrow, so I'll try to see what I'm doing wrong and correct it hopefully. Some of those videos make it look so easy.

 

[Goblin]

One thing that helps me with the "hitting the knee" issue is to think of sitting back in a chair at the beginning of the lift when "setting" my stance, then driving through with my heels so that my legs are doing the initial work instead of my lower back. It's kind of hard to explain ... instead of pulling up, it's almost like I'm pulling up and sitting back. Then I reverse the motion on the way down, and the bar clears the knees easily.

The clean and jerk is a pretty technical lift. If I were going to learn to do it with any significant weight, I'd get a good Olympic lifting DVD and work on it with a broomstick until I got comfortable with the form.

 

[gyea]

Originally Posted by sonick

But I find if I do that, its tough to get the bar up over my knees coz they're still bent, unless I lean further forward so have enough room for the bar to clear my knees.

if you're hitting your knees when pulling up, then i think leaning too far forward. your knees/shins should be perpendicular to the floor. when you're extending up, it kinda feels as if your pulling back rather than just up and the bar should almost rolling along your shins. for power as you drive upwards, imagine as if you're trying to split the ground with your feet. same technique as when you're squatting.

 

[coachvu]

Originally Posted by AdamG

Also on machines, some can be bad for your knees, leg raises in particular.

Do you mean leg extensions? Those are exercises you do in physical therapy to protect your knees. By strenthening your quads, you help stabilize your knees.

 

[coachvu]

Originally Posted by AdamG

Going all the way down (ATG) causes less stress than a parallel squat. Your knee is at it's weakest at parallel; stopping there is actually worse for your knees than just passing through.

And this doesn't make sense. If I squat to parallel, I'm only there a **** second until I go back up. If I pass by parallel both on the way up and down, I'm probably going to be in that position twice as long. If you go all the way down, you are flexing your knee joint past its normal flexion point, which puts tremendous strain on it. Not to mention the tendency to bounce just a bit, which contributes to this hyperflexion.

 

[coachvu]

Originally Posted by Goblin

The deadlift is my favorite lift, as it doesn't require a spotter and the form is, for me, easier to "get right" than is squat form. It's very hard for some people to perform squats correctly without someone knowledgeable giving them in-person advice, and squatting incorrectly can a) be dangerous and b) lead to the formation of bad habits.

I haven't tried a 1-rep max on either lift in a long time, as I'm just now returning to lifting after a nagging wrist injury. I weigh 145 lbs and I'm pretty sure I'll be back up to a 300 lb deadlift after a couple of months of slow progression. (I'm currently lifting relatively girly weights to get my wrist accustomed to the stresses again). I would *not* rush the progression if I were you, as you want to take advantage of often-amazing "beginner's gains" for as long as possible. As long as you can see visible progress toward your goals, IMO, there's no reason to rush.

I don't currently squat. I have a power rack in my garage, but even so, I'm uncomfortable squatting with just my wife to spot me. I use something called a "trap bar" - some people call it a "hex bar." It's used for deadlifts, but the motion has more of a quad emphasis than a conventional or even sumo deadlift, and it's a fine squat substitute for folks who can't or won't squat for whatever reason. Mine has slightly thickened handles (1.5") for additional grip emphasis, and I use 25 lb standard plates instead of 50 lb standard plates so my range of motion is greater. If I have to bail on a lift, the only thing at risk is the rug in my garage.

You might browse the archives at www.t-nation.com ... it's got a lot of good articles, if you can get past the product-pimping and screeching insecurity. Since you're a regular here, you clearly can.

Those hex bars are great. We had some in our high school gym that we used for deadlifts and shrugs. I always felt I had better form with them than a straight bar.

 

[coachvu]

Originally Posted by sonick

But I find if I do that, its tough to get the bar up over my knees coz they're still bent, unless I lean further forward so have enough room for the bar to clear my knees.

Yeah, you may not be able to time it perfectly, but just try to have your back do as little of the lifting on its own as possible. My gym at home has a machine that essentially eliminates this problem. Also, the hex bars mentioned in an earlier post are great as well.

 

[vanity]

I hit sets of 225lb for squats today (3 sets) and 205 for deadlifts (4 sets).

I want those 30" legs that one dude had.

 

[knucks]

my current goal is to be doing 405 max on squats..

i'm attempting to pull 420 dl tomorrow or tues

 

[vanity]

What do you do for reps? I have no idea what my 1-rep max is.

 

[knucks]

375

 

[AdamG]

Do you mean leg extensions? Those are exercises you do in physical therapy to protect your knees. By strenthening your quads, you help stabilize your knees.

There is a difference between light therapy to rebuild a joint and using a machine to get strong and build muscle. I've heard bad things about the leg extension with regard to the stress it puts on the knee. I wouldn't touch it regardless though; squats are much more effective. "In a leg extension machine, there is a pad against the front of your shin or ankle, and you press against it to move the weight. The foot swings upward in an arc. Thus, as you can see in the figure on the right, the pressure is coming across the shin bones, not along their length. This creates the problem in the knee joint as the shin is pressed backwards." "Leg extensions do have their place, usually in rehab. If the leg extension machine is used, it is wise to use a smaller range of motion, perhaps the top third of the movement (from slightly bent to fully straight leg), and light weight."

And this doesn't make sense. If I squat to parallel, I'm only there a **** second until I go back up. If I pass by parallel both on the way up and down, I'm probably going to be in that position twice as long. If you go all the way down, you are flexing your knee joint past its normal flexion point, which puts tremendous strain on it. Not to mention the tendency to bounce just a bit, which contributes to this hyperflexion.

"While biomechanical research does support the fact that forces on the connective tissues of the knee increase with the knee angle, particularly on the posterior cruciate ligament, there is no evidence that these increased forces actually lead to injury. There is no direct evidence that full squatting causes or even exacerbates knee pain nor damage. I do not know of a single documented case where full squatting led directly to knee injury. Not one!" "No study, short or long term, has ever shown an increase in knee laxity from deep squatting." "...knee injury usually results from varus or valgus force (twisting of the joint in either direction), inappropriate loading, or forcible shear across the joint. It does not occur simply from taking the knee joint through a full range of motion, using correct technique, and using a weight which is appropriate to the abilities of the trainee." http://www.stumptuous.com/cms/displayarticle.php?aid=52

 

[coachvu]

^ not exactly an orthopedic medicine journal. This woman's background is fine arts and women's studies.

 

[knucks]

Ok, stop being stubborn and just think about it:

If you go to parallel, there is pressure on the knee caps.

next you're going to tell me to go ABOVE parallel?

 

[Noesis]

Machines, including the leg press, are based on the theory of peak contraction, meaning you start at your weakest point. Good strength coaches consider many machines more dangerous than using free weights properly, in addition to being horrible tools for training. The other big problem is that they don't work stabalizer muscles. This can even cause long term strength inbalances among other problems.

Also, like knucks and others said, squatting BELOW PARALLEL is the only way to squat.