Custom White's Boots ... Thoughts?

[ThreeLions]

My all black NFPA Smokejumpers squeak like crazy and have done for several years. I wear them everyday, so I don't want to send them in until they really need a new sole. They've been worn 5 days a week for 5-6 years now and I think I still have about 25% life left in the 100F (fire rated lug sole). Walking around the office, you can hear me coming from a mile away.

 

[theofficialhung]

I've heard its the glue compound attaching outsole to midsole that causes the squeak and Whites changed the glue so this doesn't happen. However, if they're using canvas between leather layers then the fix sounds more complicated and not an easy fix on resole like I hoped.

 

[ThreeLions]

I've heard its the glue compound attaching outsole to midsole that causes the squeak and Whites changed the glue so this doesn't happen. However, if they're using canvas between leather layers then the fix sounds more complicated and not an easy fix on resole like I hoped.

Yep, I think you're right. At least that seems to have been the consensus here in the past few years.

 

[theofficialhung]

Yep, I think you're right. At least that seems to have been the consensus here in the past few years.

But why would they use canvas between leather layers if the new updated glue will fix the issue? The canvas build sounds a lot more complicated/disruptive to their existing boot making process (and costly) than using different glue. I'm just a guy in an office who spends way too much time on boot forums so I don't know what I'm talking about, maybe someone from Whites will see this convo and set the record straight...

 

[Jimk4003]

But why would they use canvas between leather layers if the new updated glue will fix the issue? The canvas build sounds a lot more complicated/disruptive to their existing boot making process (and costly) than using different glue. I'm just a guy in an office who spends way too much time on boot forums so I don't know what I'm talking about, maybe someone from Whites will see this convo and set the record straight...

White's said they were using a new glue to try and fix issues with squeaking two and a half years ago. I'd assume, given that @climbinglife was recently told that they're still receiving several pairs back per week to fix squeaking issues, that the change of glue didn't have the desired affect.

Separating out the leather layers with fabric might be more complicated, but it's a pretty surefire way of preventing squeaks. Ultimately, I think it's an improvement.

 

[Percivilla]

Must have used the old glue on mine...

Welp, gave them the Tony Montana treatment with talc, gonna take the dog for a walk and hope the horny ducks settle down.

 

[motojobobo]

About the squeaky boot problem…a few years ago another Ironheart forum member struggled with the same issue. He eventually solved it by using a syringe and needle to inject minimal bits of oil into the area where the squeak was generated. Did it by inserting the needle through the boot inner sole (from within the inside of the boot) and not trying to puncture the rubber outsole with the needle.
Haven’t tried it myself but seems like worth an attempt before sending in for resoles.

 

[chicagoan2016]

@ThreeLions If I recall you have two pairs of boots in British tan CXL.
Share some recent pics please.

 

[Percivilla]

About the squeaky boot problem…a few years ago another Ironheart forum member struggled with the same issue. He eventually solved it by using a syringe and needle to inject minimal bits of oil into the area where the squeak was generated. Did it by inserting the needle through the boot inner sole (from within the inside of the boot) and not trying to puncture the rubber outsole with the needle.
Haven’t tried it myself but seems like worth an attempt before sending in for resoles.

I like it, that exact idea had crossed my mind this afternoon.

 

[Mr.Chest]

Has anyone with the Honey Vibram outsoles experienced this? The one on the left is fine, but the right one has developed almost like a hard “glaze” over it. I was wearing these for work (diesel mechanic), but the double midsole was hurting my feet on the concrete, so I’ve been wearing them casually, but honestly not all that much lately. The right boot has become rather slick on hard, smooth surfaces. I don’t know if it came into contact with a chemical at work that caused this, or if it’s just a defect. It seems to get worse when I go a long period of time without wearing them. View attachment 1837399 View attachment 1837400

I don’t have honey vibram soles on my whites but from the look of that the rubber looks either chemically altered or even burned/melted? It looks more brittle for sure. It’s also only on the points of highest contact so I assume it was something you stepped in/on

 

[ThreeLions]

@ThreeLions If I recall you have two pairs of boots in British tan CXL.
Share some recent pics please.

Sorry, I haven't worn them hardly at all of late and don't have any recent pictures.

You sure have a good memory though!

 

[Alaskaking]

White's said they were using a new glue to try and fix issues with squeaking two and a half years ago. I'd assume, given that @climbinglife was recently told that they're still receiving several pairs back per week to fix squeaking issues, that the change of glue didn't have the desired affect.

Separating out the leather layers with fabric might be more complicated, but it's a pretty surefire way of preventing squeaks. Ultimately, I think it's an improvement.

White's said they were using a new glue to try and fix issues with squeaking two and a half years ago. I'd assume, given that @climbinglife was recently told that they're still receiving several pairs back per week to fix squeaking issues, that the change of glue didn't have the desired affect.

Separating out the leather layers with fabric might be more complicated, but it's a pretty surefire way of preventing squeaks. Ultimately, I think it's an improvement.

I have multiple squeakers. I did send the first pair back for warranty resole and they have remained squeak free. I have received new pairs since, that squeak as well- Actually I think the resole to eliminate the squeak pair is the only ones that don't to some extent.
I have not sent other ones back for resolution of this problem primarily, because I was not overwhelmed with the sloppy resole job, solid- but sloppy. (I also had another pair rebuilt- the split in the inside heel stitching, that was just sloppy- same complaint- solid, but sloppy there were even old loose threads left dangling on the inside of the boot on those).
I suspect that the resole resolution had more to it than a change in glue- they definitely flex in a more stiff way than any other pair I own- and I do have several with the exact same specifications- and the flex under the ball of my foot- feels like there may be more material there, than in any other pair. First reading of this fabric intervention is the best explanation to why those feel that way.
But, again, pairs received since this repair- and certainly beyond the 2.5 window of "glue switch" squeak, and do not have this "extra" material feeling that the squeak free repair does.
FWIW- this squeak was one of those that you feel the whole midsole shudder under the ball of the foot. They don't do that any more, but they are a touch less comfortable than other pairs (just at that flexion point under the ball of my foot).
The other pair that has as a significant a squeak (with the shudder)- a few weeks ago I spent the day slogging around a wet yard to the point of having the boots fairly damp on the inside- the squeak went away entirely for about 3-4 wears after, but its coming back-- I'm not advising the old firefighter soak the boots in water recommendation- but, as another data point- it did help that pair if only briefly- so I may experiment with water. Please share how the injection experiment works if you go that route @Percivilla ! I have tried just applying liquid Obenauf's to the inside- but the insole just gobbles up the oil and I don't want to ruin them by pouring a whole bottle in, yet.

 

[Percivilla]

I have multiple squeakers. I did send the first pair back for warranty resole and they have remained squeak free. I have received new pairs since, that squeak as well- Actually I think the resole to eliminate the squeak pair is the only ones that don't to some extent.
I have not sent other ones back for resolution of this problem primarily, because I was not overwhelmed with the sloppy resole job, solid- but sloppy. (I also had another pair rebuilt- the split in the inside heel stitching, that was just sloppy- same complaint- solid, but sloppy there were even old loose threads left dangling on the inside of the boot on those).
I suspect that the resole resolution had more to it than a change in glue- they definitely flex in a more stiff way than any other pair I own- and I do have several with the exact same specifications- and the flex under the ball of my foot- feels like there may be more material there, than in any other pair. First reading of this fabric intervention is the best explanation to why those feel that way.
But, again, pairs received since this repair- and certainly beyond the 2.5 window of "glue switch" squeak, and do not have this "extra" material feeling that the squeak free repair does.
FWIW- this squeak was one of those that you feel the whole midsole shudder under the ball of the foot. They don't do that any more, but they are a touch less comfortable than other pairs (just at that flexion point under the ball of my foot).
The other pair that has as a significant a squeak (with the shudder)- a few weeks ago I spent the day slogging around a wet yard to the point of having the boots fairly damp on the inside- the squeak went away entirely for about 3-4 wears after, but its coming back-- I'm not advising the old firefighter soak the boots in water recommendation- but, as another data point- it did help that pair if only briefly- so I may experiment with water. Please share how the injection experiment works if you go that route @Percivilla ! I have tried just applying liquid Obenauf's to the inside- but the insole just gobbles up the oil and I don't want to ruin them by pouring a whole bottle in, yet.

Appreciate your perspective and experience!

After thinking it over I'm not going to warranty them. They're too damn perfect to risk having them come back with a sloppy resole. I really love these boots, they're the first pair I've had aside from my Red Wing steel toes that I can wear all day doing anything, walking any distance, in perfect comfort.

The first thing I was thinking about trying was dumping a half cup of distilled water into them and then going for a walk.

Like you described, I'm getting that "shudder" of the layers of leather sliding against one another under the ball of the foot.

The talc powder hasn't done anything, but I don't see why it would as it would need a way to get under the insole.

 

[Jimk4003]

FWIW- this squeak was one of those that you feel the whole midsole shudder under the ball of the foot.

Appreciate your perspective and experience!

After thinking it over I'm not going to warranty them. They're too damn perfect to risk having them come back with a sloppy resole. I really love these boots, they're the first pair I've had aside from my Red Wing steel toes that I can wear all day doing anything, walking any distance, in perfect comfort.

The first thing I was thinking about trying was dumping a half cup of distilled water into them and then going for a walk.

Like you described, I'm getting that "shudder" of the layers of leather sliding against one another under the ball of the foot.

The talc powder hasn't done anything, but I don't see why it would as it would need a way to get under the insole.

I know the feeling you're talking about under your foot; it feels like you boot is 'blowing a raspberry' (is that a British idiom? A 'Bronx cheer'?) under your foot.

I didn't find talc powder did anything either. Over multiple days I dumped more powder in until it was puffing out through the seams as I walked; the squeak didn't change in the slightest. Ultimately, I think re-soling is the only surefire way to address the issue.

 

[Woodtroll]

On the subject of squeaks in the ball of the foot:

At the risk of getting blamed for messing up somebody's boots, I'm going to share this with y'all. Some of you are in the same shape I was in - you have a pair of boots that are great, except for the squeak, and either because of the shipping costs and long wait, or the fear that they'll come back worse than they were, you don't want to send them back. I've been reluctant to share this because there is potential to really mess up, I guess, but it worked well for me.

I got a pair of Smokejumpers about two and a half years ago, built right after they switched to the "better" glue. Well, the "better" glue was not a good choice - my heel caps were coming loose, and the sole in the shank/arch area where it's not stitched through was coming loose on both sides of both boots, within a few months. I fixed these spots with Barge cement, and they've held up fine. Then, at almost a year old, both boots started to squeak terribly. I talked to Kyle about it and he said I could send them back, but the shipping across the country was expensive, the wait even back then was long, and I was afraid the rebuild would cause the boots to not fit as great as they did. I tried talcum, different socks, filling the boots full of water then draining and wearing, etc. - none of that helped. The one thing I DID NOT DO was pour oil into them. If you soak leather with oil and then ever need to try to glue it, you're out of luck.

So I got to messing with the boots trying to figure out exactly where they were squeaking, and it turned out both were squeaking worst right under the inside ball of my foot, right where the big toe joint is back in the foot. Pressing down inside the boot in that area with my thumb, then flexing the boots on a flat surface to simulate how they bend when walking, it was pretty easy to feel where they were "rubbing" as the midsole layers were slipping as the boots were flexed. I fooled with these things for a couple weeks, trying to figure out how to resolve this and making sure I understood as best as I could what was going on. I reasoned that if layers were rubbing and slipping they could be stuck back together somehow to stop the squeak, and there must be a void or gap between the layers at least at the point of the squeak. I even though about trying to drive screws or brads up from the bottom "just far enough" to pin the midsole layers together but not get into the boot, but I thought that would be pretty risky down the road as the boot wore - I didn't want to jump down off of something and suddenly have a nail in my foot.

So I got a medical syringe, and an 18 gauge hypodermic needle, and did some poking around. On the first boot I hit the void spot right away. I had filled the syringe full of air by pulling the plunger back before inserting the needle into the boot. I knew where the void spot would be by holding my thumb on the squeaky spot inside the boot, so from the outside I pierced the roll in the welt at a downward angle (maybe 25-30 degrees), and kept inserting the needle until I felt it "pop" into the void spot. The goal is to get down into to the layer where the midsole and insole meet, which I reasoned would be the spot they'd be squeaking. Sure enough, when I depressed the plunger, the air went into the boot with no resistance, meaning I was in a void between the layers. So I took a deep breath, drew up some glue into the syringe, and injected a small amount of glue down in that void, probably a quarter to a half of a CC. I withdrew the syringe, flexed the boot a few times to hopefully spread the glue, and then slid my foot in and walked a few steps. I then kept pressure on the joint by standing in the boot about five minutes, gently took the boot off, and put it aside.

On the second boot, I didn't find the void quite as easily. It took a little bit of poking around up and down and side to side before I got the needle to "pop" into the void, but then it was easy to verify by being able to push air in. If the tip of your needle is in solid leather, you won't be able to inject air at all, or only with great resistance. Once you find the open spot, the air injects easily, so that's where your glue needs to go. As you fish around for this void you don't want to be creating a new hole every time in your welt, so keep using the same entry point and just change the angle slightly, either up and down or front to back as you insert the needle, to change where the tip of your needle ends up.

After I found the void on the second boot and put glue in it and wiped the excess from the insertion spot, I did the same thing as the first - flexed it around by hand, then walked on it, then kept pressure on it for about five minutes. Then I made sure all the excess glue was cleaned off the outside, and set the boots aside for 24 hours. The injection site pretty much disappears if you wipe away the glue quickly and mash the leather around a little bit.

The next day - no more squeaks (at least from the area I worked on)! There is still a small squeak in the heel counter on one boot sometimes, and the soles will squeak on smooth floors sometimes, but those are different problems than what we're talking about here. I did this repair a year or more ago, and have never had another squeak from either boot in the ball area.

I can't see where this kind of repair would affect a resole, since a resole never gets that deep into the boot, and a rebuild requires tearing out the whole bottom of the boot anyway, so for me this seems to be an all-win situation as long as it's done carefully. Please don't blame me if you try this and pump a pint of glue into your boot, glue the boot to the floor, or your foot into the boot. It doesn't take much glue to do the repair if you flex the boot and move it around to spread the glue while it is still liquid.

As far as materials - I work as a paramedic and in the fire service, so a needle and syringe are easy to come by for me, but you may be able to ask an EMS provider or health care worker that you know. You want a needle made for a syringe, such as you give injections with, not an IV catheter/needle. If you're feeling lucky you might ask for two or even three needles, as these are easily bent in the heavy leather. About any size syringe should work, but a 5 or 10 CC syringe gives you plenty to hold onto without being too big to manage. You DO NOT need 5 CCs of glue, maybe just one CC total for both boots.

The glue needs to be very liquid to be injected and spread inside the boot. I had good luck with "Boot -Fix Shoe Glue" from Amazon, which is basically a flexible, slow-set SuperGlue:

https://www.amazon.com/Boot-Fix-Shoe-Glue-Instant-Professional/dp/B00Q3IDN5M/ref=sr_1_5?crid=WMBT4BDUBZI&keywords=boot+glue&qid=1664628191&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIzLjQzIiwicXNhIjoiMi42NiIsInFzcCI6IjIuNTYifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=boot+glue%2Caps%2C1627&sr=8-5

IF YOU DECIDE TO TRY THIS YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. I'm only telling you how I stopped the squeaks in my boots, but it sounds like several of you have very similar issues. If you don't want to send your boots back for whatever reason, this may be worth a try.

Good luck!