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wordfool

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Then you sir, are very out of touch with Business Ops. To be clear, I'm not saying that rate of failure as a percentage to production should increase (agreed that would be a growth issue) but rather as total volume increase so will total volume of errors when held at the same percentage. Its almost unheard of for a company to be able to increase production while simultaneously making a reduction in errors.

Regardless, you and I are speculating at best as to what the current situation for White's is. I hope Erick will jump in here and provide context so we don't have to continue to debate this from and less than educated position.
Another question is whether we should cut companies like this some slack during a pandemic that has turned normal operations upside down and inside out, affecting staff and production systems in ways we might not know.

I have also long assumed that folks like us on forums like this represent arguably the most vocal and finicky customers who perhaps have a lower tolerance than average for QC problems, especially as such boots move more into the "fashion' realm rather than the "work" realm in which they once only existed. The two pairs of White's I sent back for rebuilds this year had problems (documented in this thread) that I'm sure would not have even registered as problematic with some buyers.
 

Rymanocerous

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Another question is whether we should cut companies like this some slack during a pandemic that has turned normal operations upside down and inside out, affecting staff and production systems in ways we might not know.

I have also long assumed that folks like us on forums like this represent arguably the most vocal and finicky customers who perhaps have a lower tolerance than average for QC problems, especially as such boots move more into the "fashion' realm rather than the "work" realm in which they once only existed. The two pairs of White's I sent back for rebuilds this year had problems (documented in this thread) that I'm sure would not have even registered as problematic with some buyers.
@Legal Eagles has always made note that they would need to tighten up their finishing as they move more and more into the fashion world and I 100% agree. I think the majority of their customers are still function based and care very little, or have time to fret, finishing mistakes. I dont think those guys are generally customizing many aspects of their boots like upper stitching color or trim level. But I could be wrong.

Agreed we are a unique breed that are more likely to notice and take issues with these types of things. We are also the group who takes full advantage of all the customizations they make available. And the fact is, even in this small group, we have different tolerances for what is and is not acceptable. Shoot I returned a pair of Vibergs for a comically crooked toe cap. They re-sold the pair I return and I know who got them and they are very happy with them.
 

klank74

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Another question is whether we should cut companies like this some slack during a pandemic that has turned normal operations upside down and inside out, affecting staff and production systems in ways we might not know.
I think this better says what I was trying to convey with my thoughts. But at the same time, there are just some plain old dumb mistakes made that I feel should be caught by someone, somewhere during the process before they ship. Like my SD’s for instance...I ordered standard trim and they were made with close. If I were the guy making them, that’s something I would double or triple check before going too far. That’s an expensive mistake, something that can’t be fixed, the boots have to be built from scratch again. But, like what’s been said before, we don’t know what the circumstances are at Whites right now.
 

ThreeLions

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I’m getting ready to order my second pair of Whites already and have a few questions before ordering. These will be used for work (diesel mechanic).

1) what is the difference between Red Dog oiled and Red Dog smooth? I was under the impression they are one in the same, but Bakers Build A Boot’s approximation of color seems to indicate that the oiled has more brown in it and the smooth has more red.

2) how much life can I expect to get out of the honey vibram 100 sole? I work on concrete all day, so I’m looking to get as much cushion as possible. That being said, it would be nice to get 2 years in between resoles if possible. How much worse would the black 100 be comfort worse? I briefly considered a crepe sole, but my current work boots have that sole and their lack of traction on dusty floors or snow is horrible.

3) I’m thinking of trying lace to toe this time. Can you guys think of any reason not to for a work boot?

4) if I should go with one of the Red Dog leathers, what do you guys think for eyelets and hooks? Nickel or Brass?

So far I’m thinking of going with SJ’s in the 38 swing last, in Red Dog smooth, lace to toe, nickel hardware, 8” height, double midsole, with the honey vibram sole, natural sole finish. What do you guys think?
Things get a little confusing here. When talking about Black and Brown Leathers, the "Oil Tan" and "Smooth" are the same. Red Dog is a little different. There are indeed two different "Red Dog" leathers. My understanding is that one is a standard oil tanned leather, and the other is silicone impregnated for additional water resistance.

Why not go with a standard pair of White's Hunters?

https://whitesboots.com/sportsman/hunter/



Sounds like is is pretty close to the build you were talking about already. You wouldn't need the double mid sole as these already include a half-slip midsole (most of the benefit of a double mid without the all the bulk). Plus they already include a rolled top. I'm not positive, but if you wear a common size, they might even be in stock and avoid having to wait for a custom order.

These are very high on my list for a possible future order.

Edited: As I forgot to add the the Honey Vibrams are very comfortable. They and a pronounced spring to your step when compared to the 100 F fire rated vibrams. I was worried that they would wear out too quickly, but haven't noticed that to be a problem. I think it will be years before I have to resole them.
 

ThreeLions

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That’s good to know. When discussing my planned build for my work boots with Brandon, I was considering going with a modified 55 last to get the fit close to my SD’s (38 last) because I was worried about the arch support diminishing as they break in. The arch support in my SD’s Feels perfect right now, and even if it diminished, it would not bother me much as I will only wear them outside of work. I’ll be spending far more time in my work boots and the arch support in them is much more important to me. That’s why I considered a modified 55 last, it starts out with more arch support. Brandon assured me that the 38 last would be fine, that the arch support will mold to my foot, but won’t “ go away” as I had feared.
Have you considered the 4811 last? It is the standard smokejumper last and has a little more arch support (slightly) than the 55 or 38. If you are a big guy, then a half slip mid-sole or a double mid-sole is supposed to help with retaining the arch, but to be honest, I haven't noticed any arch collapse in any of my White's from singles to tripples.
 

Netvine

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Have you considered the 4811 last? It is the standard smokejumper last and has a little more arch support (slightly) than the 55 or 38. If you are a big guy, then a half slip mid-sole or a double mid-sole is supposed to help with retaining the arch, but to be honest, I haven't noticed any arch collapse in any of my White's from singles to tripples.
Yea a double midsole would definetly add to the support imho. I could be imagining it but I feel my entire foot sinking into the midsole on my doubles vs single midsole.
 

klank74

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Things get a little confusing here. When talking about Black and Brown Leathers, the "Oil Tan" and "Smooth" are the same. Red Dog is a little different. There are indeed two different "Red Dog" leathers. My understanding is that one is a standard oil tanned leather, and the other is silicone impregnated for additional water resistance.

Why not go with a standard pair of White's Hunters?

https://whitesboots.com/sportsman/hunter/



Sounds like is is pretty close to the build you were talking about already. You wouldn't need the double mid sole as these already include a half-slip midsole (most of the benefit of a double mid without the all the bulk). Plus they already include a rolled top. I'm not positive, but if you wear a common size, they might even be in stock and avoid having to wait for a custom order.

These are very high on my list for a possible future order.

Edited: As I forgot to add the the Honey Vibrams are very comfortable. They and a pronounced spring to your step when compared to the 100 F fire rated vibrams. I was worried that they would wear out too quickly, but haven't noticed that to be a problem. I think it will be years before I have to resole them.
I didn’t consider them because I was afraid the Red Dog silicone wouldn’t breathe as well. Plus mine need to be custom, I need an instep adjustment for my low instep, even with the swing last.

i wanted a double midsole just to further isolate my feet from the concrete in the winter time and offer more support... I’ma big guy😄

got to know about the honey vibram. I think that’s what I’m going to go with.
 

Woodtroll

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I didn’t consider them because I was afraid the Red Dog silicone wouldn’t breathe as well. Plus mine need to be custom, I need an instep adjustment for my low instep, even with the swing last.

i wanted a double midsole just to further isolate my feet from the concrete in the winter time and offer more support... I’ma big guy😄

got to know about the honey vibram. I think that’s what I’m going to go with.
From another big guy - if you're at all interested in the double midsole, just do it! The extra support and isolation from the floor and impact is well worth the money. I went to double midsoles after my first pair of "thinner" 430 soles with a single insole and not liking the feel, and the doubles really made a noticeable difference.
 

klank74

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Have you considered the 4811 last? It is the standard smokejumper last and has a little more arch support (slightly) than the 55 or 38. If you are a big guy, then a half slip mid-sole or a double mid-sole is supposed to help with retaining the arch, but to be honest, I haven't noticed any arch collapse in any of my White's from singles to tripples.
I went through 2 pairs of try on’s , one in the 55 last, the other on the 4811. The 55 had a higher arch support than the 38 and the 4811 even more. That’s why I was considering the 55 last for my work boots, but the SD’s I got in the 38 fit so good. Plus, if I were to go with the 55 last, I’d have to have them built in a 13D with an instep adjustment to fit the ball and instep of my feet, with a 13C heel and then have it clamped to try and get it down to a B heel. Bakers told me Whites can’t do anymore than one widths difference between the ball width and heel width. The 38 last only requires an instep adjustment to work for my feet. The 38’s arch support should work well for me, it has slightly higher support than the orthotic insoles I use in my other footwear. I’m already planning on going with the double midsole.
 

Legal Eagles

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[T]he SD’s I got in the 38 fit so good.
I wish more people realized how incredible the 38 Swing last is... even if you don't have a wide forefoot, this cousin to the Munson last is awesome... the cool retro look is just icing... in a world where service boots have become ubiquitous... the 38 stands out...

It is my favorite boot last... I thought Alden Trubalance was the ne plus ultra for wide feet until I tried the White's 38...
 

hoppy_IPA

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I’m getting ready to order my second pair of Whites already and have a few questions before ordering. These will be used for work (diesel mechanic).
1) what is the difference between Red Dog oiled and Red Dog smooth? I was under the impression they are one in the same, but Bakers Build A Boot’s approximation of color seems to indicate that the oiled has more brown in it and the smooth has more red.
2) how much life can I expect to get out of the honey vibram 100 sole? I work on concrete all day, so I’m looking to get as much cushion as possible. That being said, it would be nice to get 2 years in between resoles if possible. How much worse would the black 100 be comfort worse? I briefly considered a crepe sole, but my current work boots have that sole and their lack of traction on dusty floors or snow is horrible.
3) I’m thinking of trying lace to toe this time. Can you guys think of any reason not to for a work boot?
4) if I should go with one of the Red Dog leathers, what do you guys think for eyelets and hooks? Nickel or Brass?
So far I’m thinking of going with SJ’s in the 38 swing last, in Red Dog smooth, lace to toe, nickel hardware, 8” height, double midsole, with the honey vibram sole, natural sole finish. What do you guys think?
1.) As others have stated, Red Dog is an oil tanned leather in the same family as other White's work leathers. Im partial to smooth/hair side out. It's easy to clean & polish and can patina quite nicely with proper care. Roughout is seductive in pics & has it merits for applications such as firefighting but in the long haul, it won't ever turn into that beautiful, classic well worn boot

2.) I don't have a lot of wear on the honey 100 lug but so far it seems good. I kicked the hell out of shovel earlier this week to break through some pretty hard dirt & no gauges/damage to the sole. Ive been rocking the white X 100's lugs for the past 3 months or so 5 days a week, no rotation for work. I do like the extra cushion I get from them, it's noticeable. Totally with you on the crepe sole - feel like i nearly lost my life slipping on wet concrete MANY times! I hate that POS sole - most overrated junk ever. All the RW fanboys worship it though

3.) ^the above work boot I mentioned is my first pair of LTT's from White's. REALLY like it. If you got the itch - def. go for it!

4.) Brass hardware all the way with Red Dog! I have Antique in my RD's which I like, but if i could do it over again i'd def. go brass! Natural edge for sure too.
 

chicagoan2016

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I went through 2 pairs of try on’s , one in the 55 last, the other on the 4811. The 55 had a higher arch support than the 38 and the 4811 even more. That’s why I was considering the 55 last for my work boots, but the SD’s I got in the 38 fit so good. Plus, if I were to go with the 55 last, I’d have to have them built in a 13D with an instep adjustment to fit the ball and instep of my feet, with a 13C heel and then have it clamped to try and get it down to a B heel. Bakers told me Whites can’t do anymore than one widths difference between the ball width and heel width. The 38 last only requires an instep adjustment to work for my feet. The 38’s arch support should work well for me, it has slightly higher support than the orthotic insoles I use in my other footwear. I’m already planning on going with the double midsole.
May be I am misunderstanding something but did you mean 55 has better arch support than 4811?
 

chicagoan2016

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I wish more people realized how incredible the 38 Swing last is... even if you don't have a wide forefoot, this cousin to the Munson last is awesome... the cool retro look is just icing... in a world where service boots have become ubiquitous... the 38 stands out...

It is my favorite boot last... I thought Alden Trubalance was the ne plus ultra for wide feet until I tried the White's 38...
Does the 38 Swing last have more arch support than 55 or 4811?
 

klank74

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I wish more people realized how incredible the 38 Swing last is... even if you don't have a wide forefoot, this cousin to the Munson last is awesome... the cool retro look is just icing... in a world where service boots have become ubiquitous... the 38 stands out...

It is my favorite boot last... I thought Alden Trubalance was the ne plus ultra for wide feet until I tried the White's 38...
I kinda like the look of the swing last, but I feel like it definitely needs a toe cap to look good.... or a lace to toe make up.

In my case, it isn’t that I have ultra wide feet... I have slightly narrow feet, a thin instep ( low instep with a normal arch) and a heel about 2 widths narrower than the ball of my foot. The shape of the swing last, withan instep adjustment just works. When Brandon started explaining all they would have to do to make a 55 last work for me, I thought that sounds a whole lot like the swing last.... let’s make this less complicated and just try that.
 

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