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chicagoan2016

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If I was running the show... I would be tempted to hire a person to detail check each boot and the associated order specs. Having my name slagged online for whiffing on basic things is something I can't stand for. It reeks of I dont need you as bad as you need me.

I've helped run a software company for 20 years. In the old days we shipped out old school CD's and manuals. To ensure things were done to my satisfaction at shipping, I blocked off the time of 330-430 to personally inspect every shipment that went out. It was a huge pain in the @$$ and it seems I could have been doing more useful things. The shipping guys always respected me for doing it and we basically never had a customer issue. It can (and really should) be done.
Did you say "Software"? I have to quote Leonardo DiCaprio "You had my curiosity but now you have my attention".
I work as a Software Engineer, have a degree from an accredited college to prove it lol
I remember the days when I used to install Visual Studio and SQL Server from CDs/DVDs. I wonder which company did you manage? :)
 

Woodtroll

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I’m getting ready to order my second pair of Whites already and have a few questions before ordering. These will be used for work (diesel mechanic).

1) what is the difference between Red Dog oiled and Red Dog smooth? I was under the impression they are one in the same, but Bakers Build A Boot’s approximation of color seems to indicate that the oiled has more brown in it and the smooth has more red.

2) how much life can I expect to get out of the honey vibram 100 sole? I work on concrete all day, so I’m looking to get as much cushion as possible. That being said, it would be nice to get 2 years in between resoles if possible. How much worse would the black 100 be comfort worse? I briefly considered a crepe sole, but my current work boots have that sole and their lack of traction on dusty floors or snow is horrible.

3) I’m thinking of trying lace to toe this time. Can you guys think of any reason not to for a work boot?

4) if I should go with one of the Red Dog leathers, what do you guys think for eyelets and hooks? Nickel or Brass?

So far I’m thinking of going with SJ’s in the 38 swing last, in Red Dog smooth, lace to toe, nickel hardware, 8” height, double midsole, with the honey vibram sole, natural sole finish. What do you guys think?

1. I'm pretty sure that they are the same leather. There is a Red Dog silicone leather that White's uses for a hunting boot, but I would not expect it to breathe as well as the oil-tan leather.

2. I've always heard the Honey would wear faster, but have never owned a pair. I have tried on one pair, and the soles MAY have been a little softer than the black 100, but I couldn't tell for sure in that short time. I can tell you that the 100 soles DEFINITELY have more give and less cold/heat conduction than the slicker soles like the 430. Even if you don't need the grip, I'd recommend some version of the 100 on concrete. I'm not a fan at all of the crepe soles, for the reasons you listed and more.

3. If it were me, thinking of the oil, fuel, grimy grit, etc. that you'll have dripping on your boots, I'd go with the plain toe in smooth oil tan leather. These will be much easier to keep clean than the lace-to-toe or a rough-out version.

4. The right choice is always brass! ;) That's just my strong preference but is a personal opinion - there is no difference in the wear or durability that I know of.Pick what you like best.

Here's a photo of Red Dog oiled leather with brass hardware and roughout lowers. As I already said, I think roughout would stain much more easily with the work you do, but it will give you an idea of colors. The light roughout turned much darker to match the smooth leather the first time I oiled them.

IMG_1483.jpg


Good luck with your choices!
 

Rymanocerous

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Not trying to be a White's apologist here. My understanding is that their production is way up. Obviously error rates will follow. It's inevitable to a growing economy of scale. @sambam How many pairs are you guys producing, how many with customization and whats your error rate?

Maybe Im more wabi sabi about it because I'm also a Viberg customer.
 

chicagoan2016

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1. I'm pretty sure that they are the same leather. There is a Red Dog silicone leather that White's uses for a hunting boot, but I would not expect it to breathe as well as the oil-tan leather.

2. I've always heard the Honey would wear faster, but have never owned a pair. I have tried on one pair, and the soles MAY have been a little softer than the black 100, but I couldn't tell for sure in that short time. I can tell you that the 100 soles DEFINITELY have more give and less cold/heat conduction than the slicker soles like the 430. Even if you don't need the grip, I'd recommend some version of the 100 on concrete. I'm not a fan at all of the crepe soles, for the reasons you listed and more.

3. If it were me, thinking of the oil, fuel, grimy grit, etc. that you'll have dripping on your boots, I'd go with the plain toe in smooth oil tan leather. These will be much easier to keep clean than the lace-to-toe or a rough-out version.

4. The right choice is always brass! ;) That's just my strong preference but is a personal opinion - there is no difference in the wear or durability that I know of.Pick what you like best.

Here's a photo of Red Dog oiled leather with brass hardware and roughout lowers. As I already said, I think roughout would stain much more easily with the work you do, but it will give you an idea of colors. The light roughout turned much darker to match the smooth leather the first time I oiled them.

View attachment 1482890

Good luck with your choices!
Good looking boots and great job keeping them so clean!!! how do you keep the double row stitching so 'white'?
 

Legal Eagles

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Not trying to be a White's apologist here. My understanding is that their production is way up. Obviously error rates will follow. It's inevitable to a growing economy of scale.
To me this is not "inevitable" unless the company is allowing itself to grow too fast, or not investing in the workforce and QC to keep up with the additional volume... either of the aforementioned are troubling.

As an example, my firm is actually turning away business because we are so busy (real estate is figuratively on fire) that we could not give each matter the attention and quality service we expect from ourselves... sure, we could book the business, and do an adequate but ultimately mediocre job, but "adequate" is not who we are. We refuse to accept anything less than the best from ourselves, and we would certainly not expect our clients to accept anything less from us. Does this stance prevent us from making the maximum possible revenue? Yes, but we preserve our reputation for quality and exclusivity by doing so...

Maybe Im more wabi sabi about it because I'm also a Viberg customer.
I too can be wabi sabi about small imperfections or non-uniformity associated with hand crafting a product.

I cannot be wabi sabi about bonehead mistakes involving not being able to follow an order sheet... or building the wrong product and shipping it...
 
Last edited:

Rymanocerous

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To me this is not "inevitable" unless the company is allowing itself to grow too fast, or not investing in the workforce and QC to keep up with the additional volume... either of the aforementioned are troubling.
Then you sir, are very out of touch with Business Ops. To be clear, I'm not saying that rate of failure as a percentage to production should increase (agreed that would be a growth issue) but rather as total volume increase so will total volume of errors when held at the same percentage. Its almost unheard of for a company to be able to increase production while simultaneously making a reduction in errors.

Regardless, you and I are speculating at best as to what the current situation for White's is. I hope Erick will jump in here and provide context so we don't have to continue to debate this from and less than educated position.
 

Legal Eagles

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To be clear, I'm not saying that rate of failure as a percentage to production should increase (agreed that would be a growth issue) but rather as total volume increase so will total volume of errors when held at the same percentage.
I actually agree with you... double the production, double the errors, but also double the QC department so these errors have the same percent chance of getting outside the factory (which I think we agree should be as low as possible). If you double the production, worshiping at the altar of volume, throughput, and revenue, but do not increase Quality Control, more errors will reach the customer. It depends on your business model whether this is an acceptable tradeoff... as a customer, I have my own opinion as to whether increased volume is always a good thing.

Regardless, you and I are speculating at best as to what the current situation for White's is. I hope Erick will jump in here and provide context so we don't have to continue to debate this from and less than educated position.
I agree with you here as well... see, that which unites us is much greater than that which divides us... and we can sometimes disagree without being disagreeable. We all love boots, and we all want White's to be successful!
 

Woodtroll

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Good looking boots and great job keeping them so clean!!! how do you keep the double row stitching so 'white'?
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to mislead. That picture was just one I had handy, to show the Red Dog with brass hardware. That photo was taken when they were only a day old, so yeah, they're pretty clean. ;)

Here's a photo from today. They have been worn several days a week as outdoor work boots for the last 8 months or so, but I do try to keep my boots clean, and oiled or greased as needed. As mentioned, the roughout parts darkened considerably with the first coat of oil. I really don't care for the bright white welt stitching (though I know others do), so I don't do anything particular with it, just clean and oil it with the rest of the boot.

IMG_1758.jpg
 

chicagoan2016

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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to mislead. That picture was just one I had handy, to show the Red Dog with brass hardware. That photo was taken when they were only a day old, so yeah, they're pretty clean. ;)

Here's a photo from today. They have been worn several days a week as outdoor work boots for the last 8 months or so, but I do try to keep my boots clean, and oiled or greased as needed. As mentioned, the roughout parts darkened considerably with the first coat of oil. I really don't care for the bright white welt stitching (though I know others do), so I don't do anything particular with it, just clean and oil it with the rest of the boot.

View attachment 1482936
They are 'aging' pretty well. Do you think that the arch support on these 'diminish' with time or does it stay the same?
 

klank74

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1. I'm pretty sure that they are the same leather. There is a Red Dog silicone leather that White's uses for a hunting boot, but I would not expect it to breathe as well as the oil-tan leather.

2. I've always heard the Honey would wear faster, but have never owned a pair. I have tried on one pair, and the soles MAY have been a little softer than the black 100, but I couldn't tell for sure in that short time. I can tell you that the 100 soles DEFINITELY have more give and less cold/heat conduction than the slicker soles like the 430. Even if you don't need the grip, I'd recommend some version of the 100 on concrete. I'm not a fan at all of the crepe soles, for the reasons you listed and more.

3. If it were me, thinking of the oil, fuel, grimy grit, etc. that you'll have dripping on your boots, I'd go with the plain toe in smooth oil tan leather. These will be much easier to keep clean than the lace-to-toe or a rough-out version.

4. The right choice is always brass! ;) That's just my strong preference but is a personal opinion - there is no difference in the wear or durability that I know of.Pick what you like best.

Here's a photo of Red Dog oiled leather with brass hardware and roughout lowers. As I already said, I think roughout would stain much more easily with the work you do, but it will give you an idea of colors. The light roughout turned much darker to match the smooth leather the first time I oiled them.

View attachment 1482890

Good luck with your choices!
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to mislead. That picture was just one I had handy, to show the Red Dog with brass hardware. That photo was taken when they were only a day old, so yeah, they're pretty clean. ;)

Here's a photo from today. They have been worn several days a week as outdoor work boots for the last 8 months or so, but I do try to keep my boots clean, and oiled or greased as needed. As mentioned, the roughout parts darkened considerably with the first coat of oil. I really don't care for the bright white welt stitching (though I know others do), so I don't do anything particular with it, just clean and oil it with the rest of the boot.

View attachment 1482936
Those look great!, even better with some wear on them! Do you remember which red dog leather on the uppers you ordered them with?

i had the same thoughts as you concerning the rough out. I really wanted it to better resist cuts and abrasions, but I just think it would stain too easy in my work environment and be a pain to get clean. Same reason I didn’t want to go with Distressed. I’ve had work boots in a similar leather to that and they seem to stain easier.

As for the lace configuration, I very rarely do any welding, and my boots get pretty grimy in the lace area no matter what. But that is something I hadn’t thought of in regards to the lace to toe.
 

Woodtroll

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They are 'aging' pretty well. Do you think that the arch support on these 'diminish' with time or does it stay the same?
I think the arch does indeed "fall" slightly during break-in, but after that I think it stays pretty much the same. There doesn't seem to be much difference between my oldest very-well-worn boots and newest boots of similar lasts, as far as the arch is concerned.

Those look great!, even better with some wear on them! Do you remember which red dog leather on the uppers you ordered them with?

i had the same thoughts as you concerning the rough out. I really wanted it to better resist cuts and abrasions, but I just think it would stain too easy in my work environment and be a pain to get clean. Same reason I didn’t want to go with Distressed. I’ve had work boots in a similar leather to that and they seem to stain easier.

As for the lace configuration, I very rarely do any welding, and my boots get pretty grimy in the lace area no matter what. But that is something I hadn’t thought of in regards to the lace to toe.
Yes, the whole boot is Red Dog oiltan leather; the bottom roughout is just the same leather turned inside out.

I agree on the Distressed leather. I've bought one pair and they were beautiful, but even though they are supposed to be a "work" leather too, those boots would absorb moisture like an old chunk of wood in the middle of Death Valley - anything that dripped on them instantly soaked in. I had to grease them several times to get any kind of lasting moisture resistance at all, but by then they had darkened and lost a lot of the nuances of color that I liked so well in the first place. If you need work boots in any but the most arid places, might as well just go with brown oiltan to start with.
 

chicagoan2016

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I think the arch does indeed "fall" slightly during break-in, but after that I think it stays pretty much the same. There doesn't seem to be much difference between my oldest very-well-worn boots and newest boots of similar lasts, as far as the arch is concerned.
Thank you for confirming this, I don't want the arch support to 'go away' lol
 

klank74

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I think the arch does indeed "fall" slightly during break-in, but after that I think it stays pretty much the same. There doesn't seem to be much difference between my oldest and newest boots of similar lasts, as far as the arch is concerned.



Yes, the whole boot is Red Dog oiltan leather; the bottom roughout is just the same leather turned inside out.

I agree on the Distressed leather. I've bought one pair and they were beautiful, but even though they are supposed to be a "work" leather too, those boots would absorb moisture like an old chunk of wood in the middle of Death Valley - anything that dripped on them instantly soaked in. I had to grease them several times to get any kind of lasting moisture resistance at all, but by then they had darkened and lost a lot of the nuances of color that I liked so well in the first place. If you need work boots in any but the most arid places, might as well just go with brown oiltan to start with.
I think brown oil tan is the other option I’m considering. I kind I’ve like the look of the Red Dog with the honey vibram and a natural edge though.
 

Woodtroll

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Thank you for confirming this, I don't want the arch support to 'go away' lol
No, I promise you that it won't.

I think brown oil tan is the other option I’m considering. I kind I’ve like the look of the Red Dog with the honey vibram and a natural edge though.
I had considered the same thing with the pair I showed you, but chickened out at the last minute and stuck with the old familiar black 100. There are times I wish that I had tried the Honey, just to see what it was like. I think the combination you suggest would look sharp, and even better with a little age.
 

klank74

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Thank you for confirming this, I don't want the arch support to 'go away' lol
That’s good to know. When discussing my planned build for my work boots with Brandon, I was considering going with a modified 55 last to get the fit close to my SD’s (38 last) because I was worried about the arch support diminishing as they break in. The arch support in my SD’s Feels perfect right now, and even if it diminished, it would not bother me much as I will only wear them outside of work. I’ll be spending far more time in my work boots and the arch support in them is much more important to me. That’s why I considered a modified 55 last, it starts out with more arch support. Brandon assured me that the 38 last would be fine, that the arch support will mold to my foot, but won’t “ go away” as I had feared.
 

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