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Custom shirt studio tour

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Alexander Kabbaz, Jan 16, 2004.

  1. Alexander Kabbaz

    Alexander Kabbaz Senior member

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    Dear Steve: I sincerely disagree with your assessment. In keeping with the spirit of the forums, I offered an educational tour of our custom shirt workrooms to those of the members who might have an interest. I reiterated the fact that no purchases would be possible only in order to put at ease those who either can not - or choose not to - afford my prices. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever for Marc to offer his insulting remark. It was at that point - or not at all - that intervention by the moderator was indicated. The moderator's role should have been to stop the attacker, not the defender. I have read here and in Andy's how beneficial it would be if more makers would join the discussion, offer the members their expertise, and answer questions about their methods. Why should they??? Questioning methods or quality is perfectly legitimate. However, offering craftspeople an ongoing series of anonymously generated, personally directed insults is certainly no way to get them to participate. At some point one simply has to say, "enough". I would like to thank the 234 members who have had the interest and taken the time to read the two articles I wrote regarding custom shirtmaking. For those with an honest interest in the crafting of shirts I remain available to answer questions one-on-one at my previously offered e-mail address. Alexander Kabbaz
     
  2. T4phage

    T4phage Senior member

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    sage
    Originally posted by Alexander Kabbaz:
    I agree absolutely..

    I sincerely hope that we have not lost Mr. Kabbaz due to these various innuendos/insults/attacks. He has taken the time and effort to answer questions and even post a lengthy essay for our edification on his methodology. Having a person who is a manufacturer of "high end" items which we like to discuss offering his insights is most useful. I certainly have learned a great deal from his posts.
     
  3. Bespeaked

    Bespeaked New Member

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    Well that does seem terribly unfortunate. On Andy's board I was rather enjoying a fellow who was discussing similar things when he was attacked by someone who admitted to never having tried his products. He has not made an educational post since that time, a shame since he was informative and fairly humorous in his style.

    Someone please help to educate me as I may be missing something. If you make the forum environs hostile toward the craftsmen who make the type of clothing we wish to discuss, then do we not wind up with a roomful of individuals with only opinions as to what they like as opposed to actually learning about the clothing.

    I suppose if the axiom about the customer knowing more than the manufacturer is true then we are better off without manufacturers, but I regret seeing them leave.

    Perhaps if we are discussing gentlemen's clothing then gentlemanly behavior should be the rule?
     
  4. Steve B.

    Steve B. Senior member

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    Alexander:

    This Forum encourages anyone who wants to discuss men's style to post, and frequently. You and so many others who are members and manufacturers and sellers are most welcome here. In my opinion, however, your original posting of this thread had both educational and commercial purposes, and could therefore have been posted in the Buying/Selling Forum. Perhaps ths was what Marc was objecting to with his post.  However, Marc's post was a personal attack. Your retort was as well, and quite clever, although you published his name without permission.

    The degree of personal attack is hard to gauge, and I don't want to get to the point where I have to chide every member who posts ad hominem and edit or delete that post. The board is getting too big, I'm an unpaid volunteer moderating a free forum. There's not enough time to monitor that.

    I guess the fairest thing for me to do is delete all the offending posts (which took much more time than it was worth) and come up with a policy regarding this. To be announced shortly, I've already gotten a great suggestion from another member.
     
  5. ken

    ken Senior member

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    Isn't this kind of like a politician joining a political forum? You know you're going to get beraded with compliments AND attacks, and everyone will be questioning you're motives. One just has to deal with problems as they're presented. I don't agree with creating policy in the Style Forum (and I was glad that the policy of limiting marketing products on here to one post has been obsolete since the creation of the buying/selling threads).
     
  6. jcusey

    jcusey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Whether Steve chooses to publish it or not, he already has a policy. If I posted pornography, it would be gone. If I posted racist attacks on someone else, they would be gone to. These are obviously outlying examples, but the point is that the administrators of this board have a right to manage the board in such a way to promote the board's purpose, which I take to be intelligent discussion of men's style and fashion and the enjoyment thereof. Given that this is so, they have to have a policy about what to do with posts that they judge to be inimical to that purpose. It's much better for everybody here if this policy is clear and published for all to see.

    If you don't have a policy about this, you end up with the GQ board.
     
  7. Alias

    Alias Senior member

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    *shrieks*
     
  8. ken

    ken Senior member

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    I don't know about pornography, but there were some borderline racist attacks made on here months ago in an argument over the unrest in the Middle East. The posts stayed available for all to see (even though feelings were definitely hurt), which I think is commendable to the runners of the forum because we don't solely focus on clothing here. There are at least three forum topics that have nothing to do w/fashion, and of my few posts I think most of them reside there. If posts were deleted every time things got a little political or uneasy for some members, we wouldn't have a very productive forum. The GQ message board is different because one doesn't need a membership to post. Should a member of the Style Forum continuously act improper, he could be banned. I'll also say that, although Steve's huge contribution to this forum and style knowledge in general is obvious and appreciated by us all, somebody else pays for the web space this thing uses. As far as I know from reading here, Steve and J. don't have a constantly-communicating relationship. So let's pretend J. is God and Steve is King. Maybe they talk once in a while and make some new rules, but ultimately the king needs input from his people on how to better run the community. Unless he's one of those ruthless totalitarian kings who don't take no guff from no one. But come on, look at that avatar. Who couldn't trust a face like that?
     
  9. Steve B.

    Steve B. Senior member

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    Ken:

    Very funny post, and very good analogy re J. and I.

    The Middle East thing was very difficult to decide and moderate. The difference between that debate and the current one is that both sides here have asked me to censor the other...

    Which means I need to come up with a policy that's openly stated and as fair as I can make it for everyone.
     
  10. jcusey

    jcusey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I have known other boards do perfectly well (and even superlatively) without registration. With or without registration, for a board to be productive and useful (at least if its primary topic is sufficiently general in interest to attract a large numbers of visitors) is a knowledgeable and respectful user base and administration that is willing to take action against the cretins. Now, there can be significant discussion about just what the definition of a cretin is, but if a board administrator doesn't put a stop to the posting of porn, for example, the board is going to be taken over by porn posters.

    And the registration process here and most other places is rudimentary. Say I'm a chronic porn poster (and I'm using the posting of porn as an example here because I think that we all can agree that it is completely beyond the pale on this board) and Steve bans me. I can create another user in two minutes and be back to it. Banning cretinous users might be in Steve's bag of tricks, but it can't be the only thing. I think that it is appropriate for Steve to be very open about what he's doing and why when he has to act, but he has to be able to act.

    It's not that I don't trust Steve: I do. I'm quite sure that he's a benevolent despot. It's not that I think that Steve should dispense with advice from the users: I think that such discussion is essential for the creation and maintenance of a healthy board. It's just that we can't know what Steve's policy is or argue about it or hash it out unless he tells us what it is.
     
  11. ken

    ken Senior member

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    fair enough
     
  12. MPS

    MPS Senior member

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    One has to feel some sympathy for Kabbaz: he has registered under his own name, and he has the reputation of his business to maintain. Those who have been slinging mud have had the luxury of relative anonymity.

    This leads me on to the conduct of Grayson. If he objected to Kabbaz's post being sited incorrectly, then it should not have been too difficult for him to state this explicitly and politely. It is a shame that Grayson's posts have resulted in Kabbaz withdrawing his input - the latter's articles have had many hits, and are certainly informative. For my own part, I'd rather read articles like Kabbaz's rather than Grayson's posts. Why don't I value Grayson's posts as highly as Kabbaz's input? First of all, I'm astounded that someone who claims to have a "world view" of bespoke clothing could complain about elementary tailoring errors in some of his clothes: such errors should easily have been spotted by Grayson and remedied during fittings. Secondly, I don't think that Grayson would voice complaints about poor service in the same manner as myself - this can often have an enormous bearing on how problems are addressed. For both of these reasons, I believe that it is a distinct possibility that at tailor, shirtmaker or shoemaker that Grayson finds to be unacceptable might prove to be perfectly competent and reliable when interacting with someone who knows what he's doing, can communicate effectively and who has a modicum of decorum. Finally, I'm suspicious of some of Grayson's numerical inconsistencies in the descriptions of his purchases, but have given him the benefit of the doubt.

    I'd suggest a separate Retailer's Forum, to which only registered retailers and Steve B. could post. If people had questions for specific retailers, they could address them via Steve B., who could moderate them and then post them (if/when he has the time). Alternatively, people could contact the retailer direct. Whilst this would not prevent unsubstantiated derogatory comments about the retailer in the other forums, it would at least mean that retailers would not feel obliged to enter into unseemly exchanges such as the one featured earlier in this thread.
     
  13. marc39

    marc39 Well-Known Member

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  14. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    marc, stop being an idiot. Who are you anyway? Maybe it's time you posted a picture of your other ass.
     
  15. BjornH

    BjornH Senior member

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    Stockholm, Sweden
    Please stop this, nitwit.

    Steve and J : you are the rulers of this forum and what we need is not democracy but a firm hand. Go trollslaying .

    Bjorn
     
  16. TimelessRider

    TimelessRider Senior member

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    Yep...definitely time for this to end.
     
  17. Alias

    Alias Senior member

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    A great way to stop trolling is to suspend the accounts of those who do.
     
  18. jrh

    jrh Well-Known Member

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    Oh my, a cat fight on a mens style forum. Must be those tight shoes.

    Give it up boys.
     
  19. banksmiranda

    banksmiranda Senior member

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    As has already been mentioned, one can easily sign up for a yahoo or hotmail account and then sign up for a styleforum account.  Requiring members to use an email address from their own ISPs or place of employment instead of an account from yahoo, hotmail, etc is not good.
    I don't think that Marc should be made a scapegoat for the sometimes heated exchanges.  Of what Marc says, believe what you want and ignore the rest.  Marc has quite a bit of experience with clothing in general and bespoke clothing specifically.  He seems to have learned some things the hard way, spending quite a bit for what sometimes turned out to be of lesser quality than he expected when he placed an order.  Maybe Marc ruffled a few feathers.  After all, writers always seem to use superlatives when writing about people like Jon Green, William Fioravanti, Mimmi Spano, and others.  These writers sometimes write nonsensical things which we, mostly laypeople, could have written properly.  In addition, he brought up the issue of conflict of interest when writers receive free or discounted clothing from a person whom they are writing about.  Much of what quite a few people believe is little more than what manufacturers, agents and salespeople feed them as part of a sales campaign.  It is up to us to discover the truth by our own experiences and by consulting other people knowledgeable on the topic of clothes.  What Marc sometimes says based on hearsay for which he has no concrete evidence, try to find out yourself if you're that interested.  Even Steve, who initially was in denial that other writers would accept "gifts" in exchange for writing positive articles, softened his stance when he heard from someone else that it is common practice among certain circles. If anything, to satisfy you maybe Marc could be somewhat more "diplomatic" about some of the things he says, but so could many of us.
     
  20. Steve B.

    Steve B. Senior member

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    Marc:

    Your opinions are valued, no matter how dour they may be at times. Your pesonal attacks are not, hence the deleted post.

    Great suggestions, guys. See post on policy. I'm in communication with J, and once the Forum is moved and updated, we may implement some of the other rules as well.
     

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