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Crompton: "It rarely feels appropriate to wear a pocket handkerchief anymore"

corpseposeur

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I think the difference with bespoke is how it feels more than looks. When trying on my drape style coat from Redmayne, it felt like a sweater despite having canvas and structure. Bespoke coats vs. MTM can also be cut very close to the body, especially in the chest without it affecting other areas. As far as measurements and everything else, to an external observer, I don't think it will make much difference.
 

Mirage-

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I can say for certain that there’s pics of bespoke commissions I’ve seen on here where it’s “meh” and also pics of what I thought was bespoke because it fit well but turns out to be RTW + tailor.
I'm sure there's meh bespoke, plenty of it. But we were talking about the bespoke tailoring Simon wears, which I generally like a lot. Ofc your opinion may differ.

I think the difference with bespoke is how it feels more than looks. When trying on my drape style coat from Redmayne, it felt like a sweater despite having canvas and structure. Bespoke coats vs. MTM can also be cut very close to the body, especially in the chest without it affecting other areas. As far as measurements and everything else, to an external observer, I don't think it will make much difference.
This is also part of bespoke for sure, yes. I'll even grant that the highest level R2W might look as good as bespoke when well tailored, sure. Your average "invisible" office worker isn't wearing Attolini, though.
 

prof.contingency

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Yeah I’m not convinced on this.

I can say for certain that there’s pics of bespoke commissions I’ve seen on here where it’s “meh” and also pics of what I thought was bespoke because it fit well but turns out to be RTW + tailor.
Totally agreed about this point!

Just to add more to it: I suspect that there are so many factors at hand that put these sorts of comparisons further from a "fair test" to say whether bespoke is really better than RTW. For instance, not all bespoke are equal and, similarly, not all RTW are equal. I woud venture to say that the Oxxford, Brioni, and Kiton (?) RTW are superior to a lot of bespoke.

Another factor is the posture of the person at hand. If you have a relatively population normal posture then RTW won't be too shabby for you. This has become such an industry that there are very successful companies out there (e.g. Alvanon) that gather and research data as to offer suggestions to manufacturers on RTW fit. The point is that it's hard to evaluate the value of bespoke by looking comparing various, uncontrolled instances of RTW and bepsoke.

Of course, going as far as to point out the obvious. one of the major benefits of bespoke is the ability to adapt to an unusual body. So, if one is in that category, you have less choice (bye bye RTW)
 

prof.contingency

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dieworkwear

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Yeah I’m not convinced on this.

I can say for certain that there’s pics of bespoke commissions I’ve seen on here where it’s “meh” and also pics of what I thought was bespoke because it fit well but turns out to be RTW + tailor.
Totally agreed about this point!

Just to add more to it: I suspect that there are so many factors at hand that put these sorts of comparisons further from a "fair test" to say whether bespoke is really better than RTW. For instance, not all bespoke are equal and, similarly, not all RTW are equal. I woud venture to say that the Oxxford, Brioni, and Kiton (?) RTW are superior to a lot of bespoke.

Another factor is the posture of the person at hand. If you have a relatively population normal posture then RTW won't be too shabby for you. This has become such an industry that there are very successful companies out there (e.g. Alvanon) that gather and research data as to offer suggestions to manufacturers on RTW fit. The point is that it's hard to evaluate the value of bespoke by looking comparing various, uncontrolled instances of RTW and bepsoke.

Of course, going as far as to point out the obvious. one of the major benefits of bespoke is the ability to adapt to an unusual body. So, if one is in that category, you have less choice (bye bye RTW)
The times when I can clearly tell when a garment is bespoke is when the garment is so ugly, no designer in their right mind would make such a thing.
 

prof.contingency

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The times when I can clearly tell when a garment is bespoke is when the garment is so ugly, no designer in their right mind would make such a thing.
Perhaps, the client *insisted* the tailor put in 2" lapels or shorten the jacket. Who is to argue against the paying customer? Funnily enough, the client has become the designer.

Shamefully, I admit that I have done many silly things like this in the past.
 

Mirage-

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I'm not totally sure why people really want to argue how top end R2W is better than bespoke (again, we were actually talking about Simon's bespoke, not random bespoke badly designed by random people with random second-league tailors).
The original question was whether Simon in his more office-formal period would look as invisible as the normal office worker (as DWW suggested) or not. And I was disputing he wouldn't. The conclusion wouldn't really change if he was wearing Attolini instead of his favourite bespoke, I think.

Doesn't seem like a very hard task. At least not one that needs years of viewing forums, blogs, and Instagram accounts, going around the world to commission bespoke clothes, just to dress like an invisible office worker.
 

JJ Katz

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Norms change. We're not wearing doublet and hose anymore. Lace collars and cuffs have been unacceptable for quite a while. ... Crompton is realising, like many of us, that a lot of what we've learned to wear has become increasingly archaic and out-of-touch.
I understand that clothing fashions change, though I think you are engaging in reductio ad absurdum.
What I find interesting is the variety of opinions on the "mechanism" of desuetude / appropriateness and the threshold.

IIUC, your metric is frequency (how many people wear item X in a setting). Furthermore, the threshold is not "vanishingly rare" but, rather uncommon. Pocket hankies are rather uncommon today. Therefore they are "out of touch", "archaic" or even "inappropriate".

I disagree with your metric. I disagree with your threshold. Finally, I disagree that "archaic" (such as, for instance, a bowler hat) = "inappropriate". In a diverse, pluralistic city like this, people go around dressed like goths, like witches, like anything they like, It's not inappropriate. It's just unusual.

I think that something that is commonly (say, you would see at least one or more per day) worn by people who are merely dressing to their liking but not in a theatrical setting or as a distinct subculture or ironically is not archaic. Anything that was quite commonly worn as everyday dress in my lifetime might be unfashionable, but not archaic. That is why posited the original rhetorical question. If most guys no longer wear ties except on a few occasions, are ties now like tricorn hats? Of course not.

If people want to dress more casually: fine. I think it's generally ells elegant / pretty. I think there are occasions that are enriched by 'dressy' clothes. But fine; dress casually. What i don't understand is writing about clothes for the 0.1%, price-wise, to an audience of clotheshorses verging on fops and trying desperately not to stick out.

Wearing 5k suit with the ironic smirk of a baseball cap and sneakers almost as if apologising for wearing tailored clothing.
 

SeamasterLux

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My impression is that most guys who were heavily invested in tailored clothing ten or fifteen years ago have started to branch out into casualwear. I don't think Simon is alone in this. This is not to say that you can't still be that guy who mostly (always?) wears tailored clothing. Just that many people got into menswear through tailoring because CM continues to be the lingua franca of men's style. But over time, many have felt the need to dress more casually for various reasons -- changing norms in workplaces, realizations that they don't want to be the tailored guy all the time in every situation, and just general interest in clothing/ style.

I admit, I find it more surprising to see some guys heavily invested in tailored clothing, but seemingly not care at all when it comes to their casualwear. This surprises me more than someone who wears $5k bespoke suits and $1k RRL cardigans. I remember seeing a photo of Manton in cargo shorts and a polo shirt, and was surprised given how much time he's invested in his tailored wardrobe. But when it came to casualwear, he seemed to not have much interest in his appearance.
that is well put.
I also used to invest way more into tailoring than casual clothing. The main reason that I found it more transformative and I have always been keen on craftsmanship, which is admittedly less apparent on most casual pieces of clothing. The second reason being that “rules” around casual clothing being much less defined and it did not come naturally to me. So in my laziness, I catered to my tailored clothing wardrobe first and foremost.
Now I’ve moved to a more casual approach to my wardrobe, like Simon, mostly out of consideration for my environment. I used to be a die hard suit and tie guy in the office whereas we were 4 doing so in a company of 600. That also led to me being tagged in a certain way. The way you dress isn’t how I intended to be recognised for at work. So although I still do much more of an effort compared to most of my colleagues in my new company, I toned it down.
Simon getting free stuff or preferential treatment seems normal to me. Who expects a journalist to own that bespoke wardrobe? It doesn’t mean he doesn’t criticise heavily, at times. I haven’t necessarily had the same experiences as him with some tailors we happened to both try, but doesn’t mean his isn’t valid. I do believe he’s had a major influence in removing a lot of the myth around clothing and helped customers push the door of tailoring houses.
 

vida

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I've been incorporating pocket squares just for a while but I've received only positive comments from women in my life. I've also added silk and linen scarfs at the same time in lieu of a tie. If I happen to stand out at all, it has been only positively until now.
I think a woman’s point of you is very valuable. They don’t have any heritage or classic menswear baggage. They’re open minded when it comes to men should or shouldn’t wear and they normally express express
I understand that clothing fashions change, though I think you are engaging in reductio ad absurdum.
What I find interesting is the variety of opinions on the "mechanism" of desuetude / appropriateness and the threshold.

IIUC, your metric is frequency (how many people wear item X in a setting). Furthermore, the threshold is not "vanishingly rare" but, rather uncommon. Pocket hankies are rather uncommon today. Therefore they are "out of touch", "archaic" or even "inappropriate".

I disagree with your metric. I disagree with your threshold. Finally, I disagree that "archaic" (such as, for instance, a bowler hat) = "inappropriate". In a diverse, pluralistic city like this, people go around dressed like goths, like witches, like anything they like, It's not inappropriate. It's just unusual.

I think that something that is commonly (say, you would see at least one or more per day) worn by people who are merely dressing to their liking but not in a theatrical setting or as a distinct subculture or ironically is not archaic. Anything that was quite commonly worn as everyday dress in my lifetime might be unfashionable, but not archaic. That is why posited the original rhetorical question. If most guys no longer wear ties except on a few occasions, are ties now like tricorn hats? Of course not.

If people want to dress more casually: fine. I think it's generally ells elegant / pretty. I think there are occasions that are enriched by 'dressy' clothes. But fine; dress casually. What i don't understand is writing about clothes for the 0.1%, price-wise, to an audience of clotheshorses verging on fops and trying desperately not to stick out.

Wearing 5k suit with the ironic smirk of a baseball cap and sneakers almost as if apologising for wearing tailored clothing.
+1 well put
 

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