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Crockett & Jones Handgrade Dry Leather - Faulty or Not? Help!

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Melvin Udall, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. Leather man

    Leather man Senior member

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    At this point it seems two things should be said

    1- Melvin you are committing too much time to this issue. This could indicate a problem on your side- not in what concerns the shoe quality but in what concerns your mental well being

    2-Leather Man is probably right. In any case shit happens but shit happens a lot more when a trad brand becomes a designer brand "˜overnight'. C&J have been riding a tidal wave in these last years and of course you cant keep quality levels when the masses are crying for more shoes which means that a lot of money can be made quickly

    So my advice is

    1-\tTry to think of something else. The weather, your boss, your partner, ...baseball??

    2-\tBuy Church's. Nobody loves them so they are sure to be a good choice. In the last week I have been wearing a pair of BNIB Diplomats I had put up for sale here. They cost £370 and I was selling them for £180. Nobody bought them, and I am extremely happy about that as they are wonderful shoes- No creasing/discolouration like your hand grades.

    BTW- I have a pair of C&J Weymouth handgrades in my closet sitting there for 2 years because from the pics in this forum I suspect I will become sad after one day of wearing them. On the other hand since they are a few years old maybe they are fine-i.e.from before Prada bought C&J


    [​IMG] What's more re; Church's - if you do get leather quality issues it won't seems so bad as you knew already what terrible shoes they really are!! To be serious for a moment, I once had leather quality issues with a pair of Church's - and sent them back. Their customer service was fantastic - no problem, they made me a new pair without any argument.
     
  2. rabiesinfrance

    rabiesinfrance Senior member

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    Hi Melvin - re my Edward Greens: I sent them back to the shop who forwarded them on to the factory. At some point early in the process Hillary Freeman ( MD of EG) siezed them and held onto them for over one month. To be fair there were some public holidays in that time but still...........
    Anyway I got the reply that others have had in the past - that Edward Green do not use any faulty leather. Their leather is the best there is ipso facto any leather that looks under par cannot be! So I was told that I had bought the wrong size and that the ugly creasing was due to the shoe being too big. I did point out I have 45 other pairs of EGs, none of which have leather issues but to no avail. Another insole was put in to tighten them up - and to cut a long story short they are now too small and have been sent back for said work to be undone.

    All this highlights the problem when any company - not just shoemakers - is so sure their product is the best that when a fault occurs they just cannot believe it - or fear the reputation of their company will suffer if they do admit it.

    Others on the forum have said in the past that if you ask Edward Green when they sell off their seconds the reply Hillary gives is " We don't make any seconds" Still others say they have indeed bought seconds from EG. It seems to me to be a nonsense to say "We don't make any seconds" - of course if one keeps moving the goal posts.....................................


    They don't have a leg to stand on given that you have 45 pairs! Nice sample: suggests that 1/50 of their shoes will have faults - roughly 2%. You could probably trace the fault to the batch of hides used. Hey, if anyone else has a similar fault with their EGs you can do a match up - I assume the number coding is in the shoes?
     
  3. countbaron

    countbaron Senior member

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    You are confusing Church with C&J. C&J are still family owned.

    .


    I know that very well. I was trying to be ironic.

    You see C&J is today the equivalent of a "˜designer brand' in SF-like circles- Who else has to have a doorman in their flagship shop during sales to keep the numbers of customers at an acceptable level?

    Hence the new bigger flagship I guess.

    As for E&Gs and seconds that of course is total BS. Just pop by Northampton and they will show you shoes at reduced prices. Are they seconds?- well the terms 'second' is very often what the maker wants it to be

    People here have reported receiving MTO shoes with 'second'-like problems and I have bought 'seconds' with no apparent problems. Classifying a shoe as 'Second' is often a way to justify selling shoes below normal price
     
  4. aon

    aon Senior member

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    I have a pair of c&j weymouth with ugly creasing. Is the leather on this pair also dry? Or have I been applying too much cream? I use this at most once a week and polish this maybe twice a month. Any thoughts? Thanks.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Leather man

    Leather man Senior member

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    The creasing on your Weymouths is not ugly IMO. Notice that within the folds of leather the creases are very fine. That "folding" ( better description than creasing here) is I am afraid common on most wholecuts and is in the nature of having a plain vamp. I say most because whilst I own a few wholecuts I do not own Edward Green's Newbury and have never seen one that has real mileage on it.

    So, no I don't think your Weymouths are made from dry leather ( FWIW mine look just the same). The creasing I have on my EGs and the OP has on his C&Js is a different animal - each crease is broad, deep and just speaks of B grade leather.

    However, at the end of the day leather is a natural material and therefore we cannot expect consistency. Nevertheless what the parameters are, ie what you or the shoemaker will tolerate is down to you and them.

    I will say that my best wholecut by far is a Gaziano and Girling - Hanly in Vintage Cedar - its holding up brilliantly.
     
  6. Pliny

    Pliny Senior member

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    Sorry, but as Will and others have said above, this is not a problem with dry leather.
    The prob is that you are using too much polish. Period. Not dryness, not cracking.
    Use less polish. The shoes are great. Incidentally, the leather on my C&J handgrades is just beautiful. very very fine crazing all over, and the richness of the brown (in hte Weymouths) is stunning. I love it
     
  7. aon

    aon Senior member

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    Thanks for your thoughts. Will try using less cream/polish next time.
     
  8. Leather man

    Leather man Senior member

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    Thanks for your thoughts. Will try using less cream/polish next time.

    I beg to differ with Pliny. Of course one can use too much polish and that shows itself in residual wax in the creases and with age and time crazing over the surface of the shoe.

    But you have neither of these problems from what I can tell from your pics. Your Cliffords reveal a kind of deep and broad creasing in the leather itself which comes from "boardy" and lower grade leather.

    Please consider returning them to Pediwear and see what they or C&J say.
     
  9. Melvin Udall

    Melvin Udall Well-Known Member

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    Your Cliffords reveal a kind of deep and broad creasing in the leather itself which comes from "boardy" and lower grade leather.

    Please consider returning them to Pediwear and see what they or C&J say.


    Thanks Leather man! I will return the Cliffords to Pediwear and let you all know what they and C&J say. Will tell them what you told me about the leather and hope they solve the problem.

    The Cliffords creasing is very deep and broad. After two months they look pretty ugly compared to my one year old Audleys, which look almost new, or five year old cheap Hugo Boss boots worn far more.

    aon: Your shoes creases look normal, as Leather man said. They weren't dry, I just made it look worse thinking so and over polishing.

    Btw how does the Carminas in your avatar compare to C&J HG? Ugly creasing?! [​IMG]
     
  10. countbaron

    countbaron Senior member

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    Sorry, but as Will and others have said above, this is not a problem with dry leather.
    The prob is that you are using too much polish. Period. Not dryness, not cracking.
    Use less polish. The shoes are great. Incidentally, the leather on my C&J handgrades is just beautiful. very very fine crazing all over, and the richness of the brown (in hte Weymouths) is stunning. I love it


    Pliny I don't exactly know why, but I feel you are just wrong. I mean fundamentally wrong, not just wrong about this thread, your current Cheaneys thread, etc.

    There is something wrong with you.I can't quite put my finger on it- but it is real

    This is not a personal attack, for all I know you may well be a great husband, father, wife, mother, he-she, whatever.

    But in so far as this forum goes- you are always wrong-

    Weird!
     
  11. aon

    aon Senior member

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    The leather on my carminas seems to be better than the only c&j handgrades that I have.
     
  12. emptym

    emptym Senior member Moderator

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    I have a pair of c&j weymouth with ugly creasing. Is the leather on this pair also dry? Or have I been applying too much cream? I use this at most once a week and polish this maybe twice a month. Any thoughts? Thanks.
    That means you polish every wear or two. I think that's too much. When we first get a new pair of nice shoes, we want to enjoy them as much as possible and care for them as well as possible. And that often leads to over-polishing. Of course, some say it's best to polish new shoes a few times before a first wearing. I think cream every three to five wears is good. Polish imho is best reserved for rare occasions when you want them to look particularly shiny, and then only on the toes and maybe the heels. Too much polish, particularly where the toes flex, will definitely lead to flaking. And imo, and others' too iirc, the better quality the calfskin the less less cream and polish it will require. For shoes that are really dry, I'd apply Renovateur, Lexol, or even good hand lotion (the folks at Glaser designs recommend Nivea), put the shoe in a plastic bag, leave them in there overnight so the oils can be absorbed deeply into the leather, and then buff with a fairly soft cloth (like an old t-shirt).
     
  13. aon

    aon Senior member

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    That means you polish every wear or two. I think that's too much. When we first get a new pair of nice shoes, we want to enjoy them as much as possible and care for them as well as possible. And that often leads to over-polishing. Of course, some say it's best to polish new shoes a few times before a first wearing.

    I think cream every three to five wears is good. Polish imho is best reserved for rare occasions when you want them to look particularly shiny, and then only on the toes and maybe the heels. Too much polish, particularly where the toes flex, will definitely lead to flaking. And imo, and others' too iirc, the better quality the calfskin the less less cream and polish it will require.

    For shoes that are really dry, I'd apply Renovateur, Lexol, or even good hand lotion (the folks at Glaser designs recommend Nivea), put the shoe in a plastic bag, leave them in there overnight so the oils can be absorbed deeply into the leather, and then buff with a fairly soft cloth (like an old t-shirt).


    Yes, I apply cream on my shoes every wear or two. I use polish. Nevertheless, I think I am overdoing it. I'll try your lotion advice on a pair of cheaneys that seems really dry because of the very tiny cracks on the surface of the leather. This happened after the first time I wore it. I did not apply cream or polish before using it for the first time.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Pliny

    Pliny Senior member

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    Pliny I don't exactly know why, but I feel you are just wrong. I mean fundamentally wrong, not just wrong about this thread, your current Cheaneys thread, etc.

    There is something wrong with you.I can't quite put my finger on it- but it is real

    This is not a personal attack, for all I know you may well be a great husband, father, wife, mother, he-she, whatever.

    But in so far as this forum goes- you are always wrong-

    Weird!


    [​IMG] prob just cultural differences.
    I may have been too forthright in my post above - didn't mean to offend you or OP. I have seen the 'too much polish' prob before tho and mistakenly thought it was cracking.
    these Weymouths are 2 - 3 yrs old:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG],
    the wrinkling u can see in bott pic are character lines, part of the charm.
    I use Saphir - mebe helps
     
  15. grimslade

    grimslade Senior member

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    Calf creases. Wear your shoes, peeps, and don't be crazy about them. The shoes you see in the shooporn threads are pristine because they've never been worn. There is some natural variability in leather quality, of course, but also issues of fit, foot shape, walking habits and the like. If you don't want microcreases, wear shell.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Leather man

    Leather man Senior member

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    Calf creases. Wear your shoes, peeps, and don't be crazy about them. The shoes you see in the shooporn threads are pristine because they've never been worn. There is some natural variability in leather quality, of course, but also issues of fit, foot shape, walking habits and the like. If you don't want microcreases, wear shell.

    In general I agree with this comment and the creasing on the above Weymouths is normal and adds to the character of this beautiful shoe.
     
  17. Melvin Udall

    Melvin Udall Well-Known Member

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    I returned the shoes to Pediwear who sent them back to the Crockett and Jones factory. I'm dissapointed in C&J who after two months(!) came to the conclusion that they feel the creasing is caused by normal wear. Do they intend to offer the same customer service as EG?!
    Does anyone have an idea how often this occurs? I find the handgrade shoes normally very nice.

    Pediwear did however very generously offer a refund. The costumer service of Pediwear really impressed me! :slayer: They are offering great prices, good advice and excellent customer service. I will defenitely buy from them again! Maybe I will even considering a few more pairs of C&J... who knows!

    I think Pediwear should start selling Carminas, especially sonsidering C&J's lack of stock.
     
  18. meister

    meister Senior member

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    +1 for Carminas...-1 to C&J quality control.
     

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