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Covid accelerated dress code de-formalization - true or false?

pasadena man

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Probably true for a certain section of that clientele.

I think the market for high-end tailoring has changed dramatically in the last hundred years. My understanding is that, after the war, many more middle-class Brits and Americans were able to afford Savile Row tailoring. At least compared to the period before the war.

Now it feels like we're in the second wave of democratization. I think there are now two types of tailoring houses -- those such as Huntsman and Anderson & Sheppard, who serve both a very wealthy type of customer, and then what can be broadly defined as "enthusiasts."

I think some tailoring houses serve more of an enthusiast type of customer. Matthew at Steed once told me that almost all their clients are enthusiasts types. Edward Sexton also once told me that many of his clients are enthusiasts -- they're not very rich, but they order one thing per year because they love tailoring.

I think there's more diversity in lifestyle now between such people. Not everyone is buying JLC watches and eating $200 plates on a regular basis, even if they're spending a lot on clothes.
Some data from women’s fashion: I was always struck by Dana Thomas’s observation, in “How Luxury Lost Its Luster”, that while in 1960 about 100,000 women bought European haute couture clothing, only about 4000 did today, despite the exponential expansion of the world’s wealthy population since 1960.
 

Nobilis Animus

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I know Toronto's great and all, but can everything really be that bad everywhere else? Just on a simple shopping trip earlier I passed by at least a half dozen men in ties on a two-block radius, and expensive restaurant patios were packed.

Sure, offices and other workplaces aren't requiring nearly the same level of effort, but does that translate into the death of ties, or a shift in fashion altogether??

What a ridiculous notion. Designers aren't making couture for cubicle workers, and people are just far better at hiding their habits than this forum thinks. If we no longer see fancy dress at any parties, perhaps that's because we're not invited to the others. :puzzled:
 
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dieworkwear

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I know Toronto's great and all, but can everything really be that bad everywhere else? Just on a simple shopping trip earlier I passed by at least a half dozen men in ties on a two-block radius, and expensive restaurant patios were packed.

Sure, offices and other workplaces aren't requiring nearly the same level of effort, but does that translate into the death of ties, or a shift in fashion altogether??

What a ridiculous notion. Designers aren't making couture for cubicle workers, and people are just far better at hiding their habits than this forum thinks. If you no longer see fancy dress at any parties, perhaps that's because you're not invited to the others. :puzzled:
I don't think the issue is whether or not you spend a lot of money on food or if you wear tailored clothing to restaurants. I'm having dinner with a friend tonight and will be wearing a sport coat.

The issue is of social class. The few times I've been to a jacket-required restaurant, it's clear to me that that I'm not among peers. The people around me are of a higher social class (this is obvious because they are recognizable people. I'm not saying this to "flex" or whatever, just explaining how I can infer people's class from looking at them).

My initial point is that, when these articles are published, people clamor about how such restaurants are losing their dress code. But, are they actually going to these places on a regular basis? The few times I've been to the restaurants listed in that article, my impression is that some of the patrons do go there on a regular basis. As RSS noted, there are some clients of Cleverley and Richard Anderson who live such a lifestyle.

I can count on one hand the number of people who have passed through this forum who buy bespoke clothes, collect art, own multiple homes, and regularly dine at such restaurants. Other people seem much closer to my social station -- they love clothes, wear tailored clothing because they enjoy it, eat at "nice" restaurants, but aren't the type to regularly dine at French Laundry.

The quibbling about CAD to USD, and whether drinks are included in this $150 calculation, just shows that these are two different sections of society.

Anyway, this sort of squabbling about social class is borderline gross and embarrassing. If you're in that class, good for you. I'm only saying that such restaurants have little to do with my lifestyle, and I presume other people's lifestyles, so it surprises me when people care about these changing codes.
 

BPL Esq

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I think people often care about things like this as bellwethers and not because it affects their standing weekly reservation at The French Laundry.
 

double00

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passing strange to simultaneously project and disclaim social status whilst rubbing elbows at a restaurant. can infer *class* from looking at folks ? hm.
 

dieworkwear

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passing strange to simultaneously project and disclaim social status whilst rubbing elbows at a restaurant. can infer *class* from looking at folks ? hm.
I mean, yes. Some people are recognizable. I'm not claiming to rub elbows with anyone -- they wouldn't know me from a rock on the ground. I went there because the people I was with valued that type of experience, so I went with them to be social. For us, it was a fun day out. For others, it's just where they eat. I assume they regularly eat there because many articles have been written about how such people eat there on a regular basis.
 

Phileas Fogg

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My club a few years ago decided to drop the ban on wearing denim. Of course, it wasn’t a free for all; they still needed to be clean and free of bedazzlement ala True Religion, but a huge step nonetheless.

some of the older farts were beside themselves. Of course, these are the same old farts who pay a reduced fee or no fee at all due to their age.

The answer was simple: do we adhere to old and outdated notions of dress and wither with an ever shrinking membership or do we acknowledge that people just dress differently for work now? And if you want to attract a broader spectrum of the population and grow membership, the latter is the only solution.

the idea of feeling special I don’t understand. It’s a very middle class notion actually. It becomes part of a costume party where we all go out to a fancy restaurant and get dressed up for it. Sort of like little girls having a tea party with their dolls.
 

Nobilis Animus

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I don't think the issue is whether or not you spend a lot of money on food or if you wear tailored clothing to restaurants. I'm having dinner with a friend tonight and will be wearing a sport coat.

The issue is of social class. The few times I've been to a jacket-required restaurant, it's clear to me that that I'm not among peers. The people around me are of a higher social class (this is obvious because they are recognizable people. I'm not saying this to "flex" or whatever, just explaining how I can infer people's class from looking at them).

My initial point is that, when these articles are published, people clamor about how such restaurants are losing their dress code. But, are they actually going to these places on a regular basis? The few times I've been to the restaurants listed in that article, my impression is that some of the patrons do go there on a regular basis. As RSS noted, there are some clients of Cleverley and Richard Anderson who live such a lifestyle.

I can count on one hand the number of people who have passed through this forum who buy bespoke clothes, collect art, own multiple homes, and regularly dine at such restaurants. Other people seem much closer to my social station -- they love clothes, wear tailored clothing because they enjoy it, eat at "nice" restaurants, but aren't the type to regularly dine at French Laundry.

The quibbling about CAD to USD, and whether drinks are included in this $150 calculation, just shows that these are two different sections of society.

Anyway, this sort of squabbling about social class is borderline gross and embarrassing. If you're in that class, good for you. I'm only saying that such restaurants have little to do with my lifestyle, and I presume other people's lifestyles, so it surprises me when people care about these changing codes.
Well, I'm not totally sure that spending on/affording expensive restaurants is a great proxy for social class. Maybe economic status.

My own view is that fashion (if you care about it) is much more influenced by upper class taste than we realize, including the casual aspects. As far as lifestyles though, I'm only saying that there are more people eating at expensive places and willing to pony up the cash for fancy clothes than we might think.
 

dieworkwear

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the idea of feeling special I don’t understand. It’s a very middle class notion actually. It becomes part of a costume party where we all go out to a fancy restaurant and get dressed up for it. Sort of like little girls having a tea party with their dolls.
Fellas, is it unmanly to want to feel good?
 

Nobilis Animus

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The answer was simple: do we adhere to old and outdated notions of dress and wither with an ever shrinking membership or do we acknowledge that people just dress differently for work now? And if you want to attract a broader spectrum of the population and grow membership, the latter is the only solution.

the idea of feeling special I don’t understand. It’s a very middle class notion actually. It becomes part of a costume party where we all go out to a fancy restaurant and get dressed up for it. Sort of like little girls having a tea party with their dolls.
And there's the rub. Businesses and clubs and such are always going to be changeable in order to attract more business. All that indicates is that no one is wearing saggy sack suits anymore, and that office dress codes are a terrible gauge for what constitutes great clothing - no one is wearing the modern corporate uniform to go out, either (unless they have to).

The idea of 'dressing up' is a big part of the last paragraph. It's that same kind of theme that was constantly lampooned in the late 19th and early 20th centuries of the city clerk who hangs up his jacket at his desk and again when he gets back home, so as not to soil it, and saves up all month to dine out at the city's most fashionable restaurant. It's not silly because of social class - it's silly because it's dishonest.
 

mak1277

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I don't think the issue is whether or not you spend a lot of money on food or if you wear tailored clothing to restaurants. I'm having dinner with a friend tonight and will be wearing a sport coat.

The issue is of social class. The few times I've been to a jacket-required restaurant, it's clear to me that that I'm not among peers. The people around me are of a higher social class (this is obvious because they are recognizable people. I'm not saying this to "flex" or whatever, just explaining how I can infer people's class from looking at them).

My initial point is that, when these articles are published, people clamor about how such restaurants are losing their dress code. But, are they actually going to these places on a regular basis? The few times I've been to the restaurants listed in that article, my impression is that some of the patrons do go there on a regular basis. As RSS noted, there are some clients of Cleverley and Richard Anderson who live such a lifestyle.

I can count on one hand the number of people who have passed through this forum who buy bespoke clothes, collect art, own multiple homes, and regularly dine at such restaurants. Other people seem much closer to my social station -- they love clothes, wear tailored clothing because they enjoy it, eat at "nice" restaurants, but aren't the type to regularly dine at French Laundry.

The quibbling about CAD to USD, and whether drinks are included in this $150 calculation, just shows that these are two different sections of society.

Anyway, this sort of squabbling about social class is borderline gross and embarrassing. If you're in that class, good for you. I'm only saying that such restaurants have little to do with my lifestyle, and I presume other people's lifestyles, so it surprises me when people care about these changing codes.
I still disagree with you, but maybe we're quibbling about the word "regularly". I don't think you need to eat at a restaurant like that every week for this to be relevant. I'm sure the number of people who eat a $200 plate meal at least 3 times a year is FAR greater than the number of people who own a bespoke suit. So while you say the people that eat at those places aren't in your class, I would argue that many/most of them would feel the same way about someone with multiple bespoke suits and thousand dollar pairs of shoes. The people that eat at Le Bernadin semi-regularly don't spend nearly as much as you on clothing and probably think only the super rich would do that.

This is just another example of everyone think they are middle class.
 

double00

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I mean, yes. Some people are recognizable. I'm not claiming to rub elbows with anyone -- they wouldn't know me from a rock on the ground. I went there because the people I was with valued that type of experience, so I went with them to be social. For us, it was a fun day out. For others, it's just where they eat. I assume they regularly eat there because many articles have been written about how such people eat there on a regular basis.
i once at a burrito next to brad pitt, turns out we were both regulars at this spot 🤷‍♀️
 

Nobilis Animus

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i once at a burrito next to brad pitt, turns out we were both regulars at this spot 🤷‍♀️
Was it Taco Bell? Please tell me it was Taco Bell.
 

Nobilis Animus

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This is just another example of everyone think they are middle class.
I shatter your puny theory with my self-absorbed and hugely arrogant belief that I inhabit the uppermost pinnacle of class perfection, about which the entire world of lesser class goodness is forced to revolve and define itself by contrast to such magnificent importance of the sort that ancient bards would sing epic ballads thereof, exhorting even more middling human beings to follow my luxurious example in the hope that they, too, may one day possibly bask in the warm halo of worthiness, propriety, and elegance which both surrounds and imbues me with a peculiar aura of excellent taste, and against the classiness of which all other souls are become pale and wan.
 

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