Correct Shoe Width Sizing- Let's Put it To Rest!

[isshinryu101]

I just wanted to get some quick input on this issue. First, I am NOT the SF B&S forum police by any means. Unless something's BLATANTLY ridiculous, I just keep my mouth shut except to make some positive comments on things I like (or wish was in my size) & to wish sellers good luck.

I feel that the problem with the ridiculous stuff is that people come to SF to buy because they think this is a place with more honesty & REAL KNOWLEDGE about the items for sale. Generally, the sellers know more than ebayers & forum members usually help out with helpful info.

Now, about the shoe width issue...

I can accept that if you are a "D" shoe width, you can probably fit (decently anyway) a shoe that's a half size up, but with a "C" width (ie: you're an 8 1/2D, but can fit a 9C).

I'll even accept (for this argument anyway) that you MAY be able to work with a shoe of the "B" width IF your foot is on the smaller side of your regular size (ie: my smallish 8 1/2D can SOMETIMES work with a 9B, depending on the last).

BUT, isn't this as far as it goes if we're being HONEST???

A couple of months ago I saw this, "11AAA, suitable for size 9D feet".

What the hell is THIS??? IF each letter down in width signifies the next size down's width (ie: 8 1/2C has an 8D width, 8 1/2B has a 7 1/2D width, etc), these DO have near a size 9D width, but STILL have a size 11 length. How the H#LL can a 9D wear these & not break their frigging feet????

More recently I saw, "Size marked is 12AA, but can easily fit a size 11D". COME ON!!! This is NOT right, CANNOT be right, and makes all SF B&S sellers look bad. SF B&S has a rep for policing itself, maybe a thread about this issue (which can be referred to/ linked to in order to call out some sellers who try to do this) will help.

Look, I understand people want to sell their AAA, AA, and A size shoes, but really, they're not any good unless the buyer has a narrow foot himself. If not, they're just "museum pieces" and should be sold as such.

 

[tonylumpkin]

Any of this is a roll of the dice, unless you have deep knowledge of the lasts in play. I can't get get my foot in a 13 D Park Avenue, or most UK and Italian makers in that size, but a 13 C Byron fits like a glove (God I wish they'd bring back the 5 last at AE).

BTW, when I list a shoe, I state the size and that's it. I don't feel its appropriate to suggest how that size might fit anyone's foot. IMO, if you're looking to buy shoes outside of a B&M, you'd better be prepared to make those assessments for yourself.

 

[rebel222]

Any fool who would believe that information will probably wear incorrectly sized shoes anyway.

I know what thread you are talking about, and it upsets me too. . . Not enough to spend the time that you have writing about it.

 

[isshinryu101]

Originally Posted by rebel222

I know what thread you are talking about, and it upsets me too. . . Not enough to spend the time that you have writing about it.

I normally don't waste my time, but a friend of mine who doesn't know any better (but should've asked) took similar sizing advice and bought some "No Returns" shoes off ebay. Spent a couple of bucks too! I told him he should stick to SF because they are at least more honest... then I saw these threads.

 

[BaseballDad]

We have all read these seemingly perplexing posts.

As a guy who has worn dress shoes for decades and as a podiatrist who must have a thorough understanding of shoe fit, what complicates this issue even more is that there are several inconsistencies within the world of shoe making and shoe sizing.

I am just short of a true US 9D.
But I own shoes that fit with stamped sizing that has ranged from US 7 to US 9.5.
And many shoes stamped US 9D don't fit me well.
The greatest variation that I have seen over the years is from shoes made in Italy.
But I have also looked at posts selling EGs and Vass and their sizing (UK or European) is not consistent with the measurements given about shoe length and width.

These variations are the result of different foot shapes (low arch/high arch, forefoot width/heel width), the particular manufacturers shoe last and the accurate or totally mislabeled shoe size.

In my experience, there is a risk that even a shoe that "reads" right in a listing for you, may fit well or fit acceptably or cause pain in one area of your foot or another.

It is always best to measure a well fitting shoe that you already own and get as much info as possible from a seller...including exterior and inside length and width.

"Correct" shoe width (or length) sizing will never be put to rest so always assume that there is a very good chance that the shoe may not fit and deal with sellers that have a return policy.

Good luck to all...

 

[Sentinel]

It seems perfectly reasonable to say that a shoe measures small or large and that a particular 8 fits more like a 10 in most other brands. It's helpful to the buyer to point that out.

Something like "11AAA suitable for size 9D feet" really doesn't seem plausible though.

 

[isshinryu101]

Originally Posted by Sentinel

It seems perfectly reasonable to say that a shoe measures small or large and that a particular 8 fits more like a 10 in most other brands. It's helpful to the buyer to point that out.

Something like "11AAA suitable for size 9D feet" really doesn't seem plausible though.

I agree 100%. Some 9's fit like 11's. UK sizes, French sizes, US sizes, European sizes, lasts... it all makes finding the proper sizing difficult to say the least.

BUT, this post is about width, and a AAA is a DAMNED NARROW SHOE!!!!!!!!!

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by isshinryu101

I agree 100%. Some 9's fit like 11's. UK sizes, French sizes, US sizes, European sizes, lasts... it all makes finding the proper sizing difficult to say the least. BUT, this post is about width, and a AAA is a DAMNED NARROW SHOE!!!!!!!!!
Each width size is roughly one-eighth of an inch. The issue of last sizing is a real one but misleading for the consumer for all of that. The size number that is printed on the last, and subsequently the shoe, is sometimes almost entirely arbitrary and, for that very reason, tell you nothing...repeat nothing...about tread width or heelseat width or heel to ball lengths or even standard last length. It is what the lastmaker, often in collaboration with the factory, says it is. And the width of the insole is determined by the actual, physical size and shape of the last. We have probably all worn shoes or boots that had an insole that was too narrow for our feet. Under such circumstances, the vamp leather is held down under the plantar surface of the foot and as long as the girths are right there is no harm nor foul if the discrepancy is not too severe. But it is not, and never will be a proper fit, and shoes that are too narrow in the tread will tend to "walk over." This is every bit as aesthetically an egregious a sin as facings that do not close up on oxfords. And more to the point it shortens the life of the shoe.

 

[pgd3]

Originally Posted by DWFII

Each width size is roughly one-eighth of an inch.

Its actually more like 1/4", brannock devices utilize 3/16" medial/lateral to measure width, but that doesn't account for the upper of the shoe..

But shoe width is actually a measure of girth, between a A and a B the company could make the bottom of the inside of the shoe, call it the insole the exact same width.

What's this? It means that realisticially from an A to a B you can simply add more leather around the top, and the shoe becomes "wider" Higher quality shoes with leather soles they move up sole width for each width. Lower they might use a bunch of rubber soles on the same bottoms but give you more leather.

Now this is all with in sizes, width is scaled to size, so an 11D is wider than a 9D, so if someone wears a 9D they probably would be able to wear an 11A, but the shoe would be long and narrow.

Again this doesn't account for goofy fitting lasts.

 

[DWFII]

Originally Posted by pgd3

Its actually more like 1/4", brannock devices utilize 3/16" medial/lateral to measure width, but that doesn't account for the upper of the shoe.. But shoe width is actually a measure of girth, between a A and a B the company could make the bottom of the inside of the shoe, call it the insole the exact same width. What's this? It means that realisticially from an A to a B you can simply add more leather around the top, and the shoe becomes "wider" Higher quality shoes with leather soles they move up sole width for each width. Lower they might use a bunch of rubber soles on the same bottoms but give you more leather. Now this is all with in sizes, width is scaled to size, so an 11D is wider than a 9D, so if someone wears a 9D they probably would be able to wear an 11A, but the shoe would be long and narrow. Again this doesn't account for goofy fitting lasts.
Sorry but I disagree. Firstly, Brannock devices have no real congruence to actual lasts. They address a mostly mythical but commonly believed-in standard that is seldom adhered to. Second, any competent last maker will say that three-sixteenths of an inch is the difference in girth measurements between width sizes ...and then only for specific parts of the last. I quote a very competent lastmaker and modelmaker, Bill Tippit--former owner and CEO of Global Footwear Services and now with Nike:

Ball, Waist and Instep=3/16" per width. So, if an 8D has a ball measurement of 9", an 8EE will measure 9 3/8". Short Heel= 1/8" per width. So, if the shoth heel measures 12" on an 8D, it will measure 12-1/4" on an 8EE.

More to the point, I was speaking of tread and heel seat widths...which control the width of the insole--a critical element in fit. Depending on size, the difference between the heel seat width on an 8A and an 8C is one-eighth of an inch and the difference between the tread width on an 8A and an 8C is roughly one quarter inch...nowhere close to three-eighths. Note that the comparisons are made between two designated widths in both examples--mine and Bill's. I have literally hundreds of "bottom papers" taken directly from different models of lasts that bear this out. Two things in passing...first, to reiterate my point about last sizes being arbitrary: Lasts are not passed out like multi-vitamins in a grade school cafeteria. They have to be commissioned by the maker or factory. This usually involves the creation of a model or prototype...often done by hand or by modifying an existing last. The modelmaker may have his own ideas about how wide the tread width should be and/or even about what a particular girth measurement should be. Then the factory may have its own ideas about what size a last having those measurements should be designated. The lastmaker merely stamps the last in accordance withwhat the modelmaker and factory say it is. This arbitrary sizing may even have implication for marketing--it is easier to sell a size six shoe to a woman than a size nine...even if the lengths and girths are identical. Second, to reiterate my episodic rants about Brannock devices. If lasts can be whatever size the modelmaker, shoe factory and lastmaker decide they should be, such devices cannot be accurate or relied upon. They are designed, calibrated and manufactured independent of the lastmaker, much less the factory commissioning a run of lasts. Bespoke makers seldom care what size a last is, or even what size the customer says he is. We deal in measurements...period. Heelseat width, tread width, length of foot (LOF), length of last (SLL), heel to ball measurements and girths.