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Discussion in 'General Chat' started by TheeTRI-RcR, Apr 12, 2004.

  1. TheeTRI-RcR

    TheeTRI-RcR Member

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    Hey guys, Some real great stuff has come my way in the past few weeks. I read earlier that the majority of ya'll prefer the bulleted posts so here we go-in no particular order. 1.\tGot a friend w/ benefits.. Word... 2.\tI have been elected Student Government President for this up coming academic year 2004-05 3.\tMom and dad Okayed the law school thing 4.\t Ok now the questions, my hair is not very long, it hangs over my ears and I get wings when I wear a hat/visor. Should I cut it? Or can I still play the undergrad card. Ok I know I should cut it but how short? I don't want a crew cut I've had one of those since I was a wee-man but something I don't have to towel dry before class"”and will still look fine. 5.\tCan I still wear flops"”daily, my feet go from my Asics ds trainers to flops for class to spikes for track workouts I'm not a huge fan of the majority of closed towed shoes although I know I need to wear them "˜sometimes' 6.\tAlong with the standard SGA stuff I/we the (vp and I) meet with the board of trustees, which will be real cool, the question here, a pin for the lapel on a blazer/jacket, you know the one with the school seal, can I wear one as an undergrad? Which side right/left does it matter? 7.\t Shoes"”I need a pair of black cap-toes for my suit some that are comfortable and look good. Not too pricey I spose up to $150, same token I need a belt"”black for the same purpose. Any ideas? 8.\ta watch"”I have a silver watch"”a regular Casio analogue watch, however I prefer my Velcro ironman digi"”wear the silver with the suit or does it matter? I think I've seen politicians with both, any thoughts. 9.\tI'm putting in an application to inter with a potential NC Senator this summer. Yeah that's it for now, thanks for your help and I look forward to reading what ya'll say. Laterout Thee-TRI-RCR [​IMG]
     
  2. j

    j (stands for Jerk) Admin

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    1. Right on.

    2. Congratulations.

    3. Sounds good. There are more than a few lawyers here who can give you pointers on that.

    4. I'm not much of an expert on haircuts but most people look good with scissor-short sides and back and an inch or two on top. Find a friend with good hair and go to his stylist.

    5. I hate flops, but do what you want. I guess more important is when are you asking about. For what occasions and why should anything change?

    6. Pins go on the left side typically near where the lapel buttonhole is. Watch TV, every dork politician has an American flag there now. Just in case you forget what country he is from.

    7. There are shoe experts far more well versed than I on the board. I will leave this to them as it sounds like you know what you need.

    8. When in serious mode, wear the silver watch with the suit. If you are wearing it for fun with a t-shirt or something, wear whatever you want.

    9. Sounds cool, good luck with that.

    And welcome to the forum.
     
  3. TheeTRI-RcR

    TheeTRI-RcR Member

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    [do not go to law school.]

    why not?

    how do you quote?
     
  4. j

    j (stands for Jerk) Admin

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    Hit the "Quote" button at the top of a separate post. Look here and up -------------->
     
  5. GQ Lawyer

    GQ Lawyer Senior member

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    I disagree with CT Guy, although I do know plenty of law students and attorneys who share is sentiments. Both my wife and I went to law school (in fact we met there), and neither of us would change our career choice. We both did the "Summer Associate" thing, and we both make six figure salaries (and she was NOT in the top of our class).

    CT Guy is right though, don't do it for the money. Given the LONG hours, the student loan payments, the amzingly whining and grating clients, the berating from partners, etc., if you are in it solely for the money, you will regret it. You should go because you have a passion for the law (although that too will wax and wane depending on your mood).

    If done correctly, the law and practicing it is a noble profession. There are, unfortunately, many who give the profession a bad name. Sadly enough, no one dislikes attorneys more than other attorneys. After all, we have to deal with them on a daily basis.

    But, I thoroughly enjoyed law school and have loved my four years of practice..... at least, thus far.
     
  6. Bradford

    Bradford Current Events Moderator

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    As the son and son-in-law of attorneys, I can't argue against law school. I think it's a good way to go.

    As for your other points:

    1. Congrats.

    2. SGA President - way to go.

    3. Already made my point.

    4. You can play the undergrad card while in school, but you may want to cut it before the internship or law school admission exams. How about shorter, so you can just towel dry and tussle it a bit, but not a crew cut. It would probably be more comfortable while running as well.

    5. Why not wear flops now while you can - you'll spend the rest of your life in stuffy shoes.

    6. Of course you can wear a pin - it goes on the left side. Always remember, your nametag goes on the right - that's so when you reach forward to shake hands with someone, your nametag is right there for them to read. People get this one wrong all the time - it's subtle but it will impress people if you get it right.

    7. I'm not good with specific shoe brands - sorry.

    8. Wear the silver watch for formal events. Wear the ironman any other time.

    9. Which potential NC senator, Burr or Bowles?

    Good luck,

    Bradford
     
  7. Ambulance Chaser

    Ambulance Chaser Senior member

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    I agree with everything GQLawyer said and would only add the following two points:

    1. I am willing to bet that the vast majority of unhappy lawyers are those working in private practice for large law firms.  While the pay is great, it often cannot make up for many unsavory aspects of large law firm life -- the constant pressure to bill client hours, the subtle jockeying for position among associates, and the less-than-significant responsibility.  Even making partner is not necessarily the holy grail; I have heard it described as "winning a pie-eating contest where the prize is more pie."  Junior partners are generally nothing more than glorified associates with a new title and ownership of the business who do the grunt work of the more senior partners.  The only way to achieve happiness in such a setting, in my opinion, is to have your own clients so you're not beholden to anybody.  

    That said, the good news is that you have several job options with a law degree other than a large law firm.  I have many, many friends who have left private practice for the government or public interest (and I am soon to be among them) and are as happy as can be.  You can't put a price tag on happiness, as they say.

    2. Don't be embarrassed to work connections like your father's former colleagues and clients.  The government job I will be starting in a few months is very difficult to get, and I have no doubt that I would not have gotten it without the help of two strong connections, one a former co-worker and one a current co-worker.  Once you get into the real world you will soon realize that smarts and work ethic are great, but connections make the world go 'round.

    Good luck.
     
  8. vero_group

    vero_group Senior member

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    Yeah, I've never understood the glamourization of working long hours in law firms. If the goal is to bill clients more money, why not just raise rates and go home at 5 PM? That's what we do in consulting -- if we are in demand, we work the same hours and just raise rates.

    I had a "big prestigious" law firm here in Dallas interested in me recently, not as a lawyer but as a financial consultant to help them justify damages etc. in corporate law cases (big companies suing other big companies). They said they expected a minimum of 240 hours a month to be billed to the client. My first thought was "Why?" What kind of lifestyle is that to live? That's 60 hours a week, minimum. If they bill me out at $300 per hour to their clients, why not just have me work 40 hours a week and bill the clients $450 per hour instead? I told them at even $200,000 a year (their suggestion), I'd be making less than half per hour as I do as an independent consultant. In fact, as an independent, I could work only 40 hours a week and make far more than $200,000 a year (the trick with independent consulting though is keeping fully engaged all year long). They call me every two or three weeks, usually on a Friday, telling me they are still interested in talking with me, but I really don't think I am interested in them. Having some macho pride or whatever about working 240 hours a month is just stupid, IMHO. There are better ways to make money than toiling away in some big law firm...especially on a beautiful day like today here in Dallas.

    Am I missing something here or are lawyers just hugely inefficient in their work and need all those hours to get their work done? I can't image lawyers have that much more effort to expend to get a task done than I do in creating some big ugly financial model in a spreadsheet and produce a presentation to support my findings, etc. Any insights attorneys out there?
     
  9. TheeTRI-RcR

    TheeTRI-RcR Member

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    CT guy after reading your position i can clearly see how you could see this as pompus, arrogant and/or even dick headed. However i want you to that in no way was ment as how you seemed to have interperted it. i do understand the frustration of working and school. im a collegiate distance runner--believe me i know. but unlike you i come home from work--chaffed and exhaused and 2/3 of the time bleading through my shoes.  although you do get use to it. but for my work i dont come home with cash. so i feel scroat when i ask mom/dad for the green. but getting law school paid for, that's been the majority of what i've been looking at to date. i want to be out of my parents checkbook asap.  thanks for all of ya'lls imput and  
    later
    TheeTRI-RcR
     
  10. Mike C.

    Mike C. Senior member

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    60 hours, that's nothing.. I've got all these kids at my school running to investment banks next year facing 90-100 hour weeks. From my understanding, these organizations are highly inefficient in their operations and management. I, the same as you, cannot understand why anyone would want to work for these companies. It certainly can't be the money... there are tons of easier ways to get paid as much. The lifestyle sucks, so it can't be that. There are no good perks I can think of. I can't imagine someone actually LOVING high finance. So what is it?[​IMG] The best reasoning I've come up with is because I-banking, accounting, and coroporate law are safe, cushy jobs with little (personal) risk and a big payoff. Honestly, this may sound bad, but I really can't find a way to have respect for these careers. I have the most respect for people who follow their dreams (sounds corny, I know) and make money that way. I'm really interested to hear from guys that work these jobs or anyone who wishes to debate me on this topic. Let's start a fresh thread, cause I feel this one has been hijacked (sorry to original poster).
     
  11. FCS

    FCS Senior member

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    Yeah, I've never understood the glamourization of working long hours in law firms. My first thought was "Why?" What kind of lifestyle is that to live? That's 60 hours a week, minimum. There are better ways to make money than toiling away in some big law firm...especially on a beautiful day like today here in Dallas. Am I missing something here or are lawyers just hugely inefficient in their work and need all those hours to get their work done?
    60 hours, that's nothing.. I've got all these kids at my school running to investment banks next year facing 90-100 hour weeks. Â From my understanding, these organizations are highly inefficient in their operations and management. Â I, the same as you, cannot understand why anyone would want to work for these companies. It certainly can't be the money... there are tons of easier ways to get paid as much. The lifestyle sucks, so it can't be that. There are no good perks I can think of. I can't imagine someone actually LOVING high finance. Â So what is it?[​IMG] Â The best reasoning I've come up with is because I-banking, accounting, and coroporate law are safe, cushy jobs with little (personal) risk and a big payoff. Â Honestly, this may sound bad, but I really can't find a way to have respect for these careers. I have the most respect for people who follow their dreams (sounds corny, I know) and make money that way. Â I'm really interested to hear from guys that work these jobs or anyone who wishes to debate me on this topic. Let's start a fresh thread, cause I feel this one has been hijacked (sorry to original poster).
    I-banking and laws are still seen as highly prestigious corporate career. The pay/hour may be ridiculously substandard in the entry-level but once you progress to mid-level mgmt and up it becomes more glorious. And I think most people who sticks around for more than 5 years do it not for the money but because they do have passion on what they are doing. For i-banking at least, I really don't think it's a safe corporate job; the demand for staffing and the total compensation are highly correlated with how the financial market is going, which could be highly volatile.
     
  12. Mike C.

    Mike C. Senior member

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    I agree that they are seen as prestigious careers and that's what I think drives alot of people toward them. It's common knowledge here (2nd best finance program in the US) that people go into these jobs because of thier ego, or to please their parents and look good to their parents friends.

    I view these jobs as souless and vapid, the ultimate form of selling out. I honestly can't believe someone who tells me that it's gratifying and rewarding to do accounting for 70 hours a week; or spend 100 hours a week compiling a pitch book.

    As for the people in mid-management, the reason why they stick with it is because if they leave, no one else is willing or could possibly pay them comparative wages. I know so many people that have done I-banking or coroporate law and have absoultely hated it, but have stuck with it. They call this "golden handcuffs." Also the overall hours don't improve that much. When you first start you're working 80-100 hours at the Analyst level. Associates work just as much. VPs maybe work 60-70; by this time you're well into your 30's and stay here until retirement. Those lucky or good enough to make MD work humane hours, but this level only the best of the best get to.

    Whether or not I-banking is a safe job or not is relative. Compared to civil service jobs it looks like test-pilot work, but compare it to starting your own business; now it seems less risky.

    The problem with financial firms are that they over hire when times are good and over fire when the market turns sour. Again, due to poor operations and management. However, the high pay and huge bonuses of bull markets should compensate when the layoffs come around.
     
  13. Ambulance Chaser

    Ambulance Chaser Senior member

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    For the vast majority of men who do not look like Brad Pitt, no $$$ = no woman.  That sounds like a pretty practical reason to get a "safe, cushy job."
     
  14. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    I think that this reasoning is misplaced. I know plenty of relatively well off guys, and not all bad looking either, who can't catch a break with women, and other guys who are dead broke, not particularly ambitious/well-educated/intelligent, don't look like Brad Pitt (of course, don't look like Al Roker either) and who do just fine. I hate to bring this all back to Johnsmith, but I think that women are turned on by confidence and turned off by guys guys who are self-conscious, and especially guys who are self conscious about money. Yes, there are plenty of women for money is a big deal, but I don't think that this goes for the majority of them. (Not saying that a woman would want a total leech.)

    That being said, having a big wad of cash seems to make some guys more confident. How sad is that?
     
  15. Mike C.

    Mike C. Senior member

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    Sorry man, but this is the lamest belief a guy can have. If someone needs to rely on the size of thier paycheck to get laid then thats sad. It's also a HUGE misconception.

    Women aren't attracted to money, they're attracted to status. Money is only one of many factors that make up status. Looks, confidence, power, fame, peer approval, game, charisma, and charm, are some more factors that convey status. Excelling in just one of these areas is not enough to be considered attactive.

    It's funny cause the women who go out with guys just for their money are the same women that end up cheating on those guys with someone like me.

    Most I-bankers and corporate lawyers I know don't get laid regularly or at all. How can you spend time picking up or focusing on a (healty) relationship while working 70-100 hours a week.

    I don't know many women that think corporate jobs are cool. I know lots of girls that tool corporate guys into picking up hundred dollar bar tabs, just to leave them at the end of the night.

    Also, women will most definately find a guy more attractive who is a risk taker or someone who pursues their dreams and finds meaning in thier work. This is why rockstars and artists get laid more than Bill Gates.
     

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