Continue with Cesare Attolini or going for Bespoke?

[Despos]

It’s all about who you work with. Would say custom has the most potential. What you write makes me think you haven’t had good experiences.
I ask a lot of question with new clients. If I don’t think I can make a suit that will make the client happy I don’t take the order. If had to remake a suit to keep a good client, I would.

I’m sure the problem was an oversight but your story about the lining mishap is why I suggested he go to Milan.

 

[dieworkwear]

It’s all about who you work with. Would say custom has the most potential. What you write makes me think you haven’t had good experiences.
I ask a lot of question with new clients. If I don’t think I can make a suit that will make the client happy I don’t take the order. If had to remake a suit to keep a good client, I would.

I've had good and bad experiences. I've also seen a lot of deviation from the tailor's reputation and the output. Sometimes a tailor has a stellar reputation, but one order just didn't turn out well for whatever reason. I've also seen tailors get ripped to shreds online for some bad garment (and rightly so), but then turn around and produce excellent work for someone else.

I think Steed has a high batting average and would say that Edwin is technically really good. Meaning, it's not like you'll get a garment that's technically wrong. I use them and really like their work. But on a friend who has square shoulders, his suits never looked quite right, despite multiple adjustments. What can he do at that point? It's custom and final sale.

Same with lots of other examples: I've seen great work from Paone when he was at Rubinacci, but then some garments made for Foo that didn't work out. Solito rightly got ripped to shreds in a suit deconstruction at Jeffery's website, but many customers generally like how his garments look on them. Two friends of mine have excellent garments from Anderson & Sheppard. But when you look at the garments made for Manton, whnay, and Simon, they all have issues. One member here loves the garments he gets from NSM (and I would say they look great on him). I know other clients who did not receive such great work.

Regarding shortcuts in ready-to-wear vs bespoke, one tailor on Savile Row once told me about how he's known some tailors to swap out cloth to save money. So if a client orders a suit made from Fox flannel, they'll use Minnis. This is at a very reputable Savile Row firm. Jeffery has examples of his website of machine-padded Henry Poole suits.

On the bespoke shoe side, one member here once ordered a pair of bespoke shoes from one of the most reputable West End firms. Turned out, the shoes were Goodyear welted.

 

[Despos]

It’s finding who and what works best for you.
Have seen inside garments made by tailors you mention.
?
You bring up different issues. RTW techniques are standardized and measured to work into a price point. It’s economies of scale.
Tailor shops have to look at time consuming operations vs output. How much skilled labor is available. Some machine work is very high quality.
If you buy one cloth and receive another that’s dishonest and deceptive.
When more clients are disappointed than satisfied, I’ll stop making suits.

 

[shoesforever]

I think mr @Despos has his points and so do @dieworkwear Generally the trouble is the clear cut pyramid of rtw<mtm<bespoke when the there are so many price levels even within bespoke and mtm. Graham Browne level do not have as many handmade steps or quality as Kiton or Attolini. Often times even high end mtm will cut their patterns by hand. There are the same/more intervariable differences within mtm as a group and bespoke as a group than between mtm vs bespoke

 

[winston]

I checked his blog extensively but it got me even more confused in the whole Attolini vs bespoke debate as Simon isn't that enthusiastic about Attolini as he basically says they focus foremost on details you can see with your eyes rather than the inside, fit, etc.

I'm curious what he means by "inside, fit, etc."
I like Simon Crompton and read his blog, but I take some of what he says with a pinch of salt. I can imagine him getting a bespoke jacket made identically to an Attolini jacket inside and being convinced that it has these 'superior' construction features even when it doesn't.

As for fit - that depends on the individual and his body. How do your Attolini garments fit? My RTW Attolini couldn't possibly fit better - they are supremely comfortable and there are no unsightly pulls or areas which are too loose or too tight (unlike with many of Simon's bespoke jackets).

Have you considered MTM Orazio Luciano? I'm especially impressed by what the Parisian Jean Manuel Moreau does with them. Simon actually featured them recently so you will have seen them.

 

[ter1413]

....

 

[miani]

@shoesforever @Despos @dieworkwear Thank you all for your input. You made it al very clear to me that there's no definite answer to my question. I honestly thought that my question was fairly simple, but as it turns out, it's a very complex matter.

I have to find the answer myself, and I will start my journey into the world of bespoke tailoring. As you already stated it's far from easy and it will be risky, but if it doesn't work out to my satisfaction, I can always go back to Attolini, my safe heaven!

@Despos I like your Milan suggestion. Musella-Dembech looks very interesting with their Neapolitan flair. What do you think of F. Caraceni? They look good as well. I will start reading more about Milanese tailors, I mostly focused on Napoli so I have to catch up on them.

 

[miani]

I'm curious what he means by "inside, fit, etc."
I like Simon Crompton and read his blog, but I take some of what he says with a pinch of salt. I can imagine him getting a bespoke jacket made identically to an Attolini jacket inside and being convinced that it has these 'superior' construction features even when it doesn't.

As for fit - that depends on the individual and his body. How do your Attolini garments fit? My RTW Attolini couldn't possibly fit better - they are supremely comfortable and there are no unsightly pulls or areas which are too loose or too tight (unlike with many of Simon's bespoke jackets).

Have you considered MTM Orazio Luciano? I'm especially impressed by what the Parisian Jean Manuel Moreau does with them. Simon actually featured them recently so you will have seen them.

Yes, your absolutely right, Attolini is extremely comfortable. I wear them for ages and they simply do not fade or get easily damaged, they can be used for every situation. I can imagine that if people like Simon are obsessed with bespoke they can get a certain kind of snobbery against "inferior" alternatives. I'm myself obsessed with the world of fine wine, and I had/have that kind of snobbery as well and I really hate myself for it!

The fit is good with my Attolini's but as I'm 6 ft 7 tall and have broad shoulders, the jackets and sleeveheads are always a bit too tight, that's also a reason to try bespoke. I'm curious to see what a good tailor does with my shoulders. I wish I can buy RTW Attolini.

I tried some jackets of Orazio Luciano but they are missing the flair and silhouette of what you have with Attolini. When I'm back in Paris I will check out Moreau for sure, the jackets he's wearing in Simon his post are incredible stylish.

 

[IJReilly]

I don't do bespoke, because I am so satisfied with my MTM tailor. Their consistency is very good. Nothing I've gotten from there has had any surprises or any flaws which were not fixable. They are also very good at selecting cloths and reading my taste, converting my fuzzy descriptions into something tangible. Their base models also suits me really well (everything just has to be shortened and widened a bit). Therefore I don't really see what I would have to gain by paying twice as much for bespoke, even though it is now available from two places where I live, and a bunch of good tailors travel here. What I'm trying to say is that really good MTM can be satisfactory, even when there are bespoke options available.

Edit: I have also seen some real bespoke horrors. Mostly due to the fact that the house style really doesn't suit the wearer, but that's all subjective.

 

[Bromley]

I know how to make a suit but I have to learn how to make a suit for you.

That's a really elegant way to frame this from a craft perspective. I think it addresses what's behind a lot of the pitfalls DWW mentions from the consumer perspective.

 

[ixk]

Yes, your absolutely right, Attolini is extremely comfortable. I wear them for ages and they simply do not fade or get easily damaged, they can be used for every situation. I can imagine that if people like Simon are obsessed with bespoke they can get a certain kind of snobbery against "inferior" alternatives. I'm myself obsessed with the world of fine wine, and I had/have that kind of snobbery as well and I really hate myself for it!

The fit is good with my Attolini's but as I'm 6 ft 7 tall and have broad shoulders, the jackets and sleeveheads are always a bit too tight, that's also a reason to try bespoke. I'm curious to see what a good tailor does with my shoulders. I wish I can buy RTW Attolini.

I tried some jackets of Orazio Luciano but they are missing the flair and silhouette of what you have with Attolini. When I'm back in Paris I will check out Moreau for sure, the jackets he's wearing in Simon his post are incredible stylish.

If you're in Paris, check out Julien Scavini too. Bespoke is 3000, MTM is 1500 iirc.
Camps de Luca also purchased Stark and offers an MTM with bespoke fittings for 3000 (regular camps is 6k).

 

[winston]

I tried some jackets of Orazio Luciano but they are missing the flair and silhouette of what you have with Attolini. When I'm back in Paris I will check out Moreau for sure, the jackets he's wearing in Simon his post are incredible stylish.

The Orazio Luciano through JMM looks 'toned down' and less Neapolitan than their usual offerings. Less or no shoulder ripples, longer length and a more balanced lapel width/shape. They look 'sharper'.
I don't know of what different models they produce but I know I like some more than others and JMM are consistently within those that I like.

I own a couple of OL jackets (not from JMM) which are very similarly proportioned to Attolini. I'd say that the finishing isn't quite as flawless and the cloth isn't as impressive, but it achieves very much the same look but for less money.

Would you be comfortable sharing photos of yourself wearing your Attolini? I'm very curious what kind of fit you achieved with your height and build. I can't imagine even a standard 'long' is long enough for you.

 

[Paolo A]

First of all I want to thank you guys for all the incredible posts and insights on this forum. I'm an avid reader and always enjoy the conversations between you guys a lot. This will be my first post so please bear with me ;-)

The epitome of my wardrobe are the suits and jackets from Cesare Attolini. I'm wearing them for many years with a lot of passion but nowadays I get more and more doubts to keep buying them. First of all the mtm prices for a suit are very expensive at the moment (around €5000, while I used to pay €3000-€3500 5-10 years ago) and they keep rising. Secondly, because I'm reading the posts on this forum and PS about bespoke tailoring, it seems that mtm can never reach the heights of bespoke. I'm 201cm tall, 95kg so I can definitely see the benefit for that.

So if you consider both points, I have the feeling that for my budget and my willingness to travel to Italy, I can get a better product with the added benefit of an interesting experience to meet the tailors and learn more about this world. I have a few questions to you:
- where does Attolini stands exactly if you compare them with bespoke tailors? Obviously you can't compare the fits as bespoke will always win that battle, but more about the quality in general.
- where should I start? With an entry level tailor that costs 1/3 of Attolini to see the difference between them? Or going to the serious names with glorious reputations?

I'm looking at Ciardi, Panico and Eduardo de Simone (at their price point I'm really curious to see what you will get for that) but I'm happy to hear other recommendations. The only style I truly dislike is that of Rubinacci. The Ciardi suits on PS are my favorite so far, but Simon is not as tall as me.

Would be great to hear your thoughts and recommendations!

In my opinion you have some of the best suits (quality and fit).
A few years ago I ordered jackets in:
1. Solito -good cut but very very sloppy work
2. Panico-old school cut, the quality of hand made work is better.
3. Sabino-good balance between cut/quality hand made work/price. They travel to USA regular with trunk show.
4. De Simón-middle size factory, not bespoke. I visited one time and meets him.
4. Ciardi-old cut.
5. The best is Gianni Campagna based in Milano. Best cut/high quality of handmade works-but highly price. The owner died 2 years ago.
6. Attolini -one of the best cut, style, quality (finishing by machine, excl. button holes)
I’m very recommend stay with Attolini.
I visited Naples more than 50 times and I think Attolini not for nothing worth the money.
If you have any questions please write me.
Sorry I have a lot of experience in ordering suits but my English is bad )

 

[shoesforever]

Cesare Attolini review by Andreas Weinås. It's in Swedish, but I'm sure it is readable if you use the translate button in Chrome browser. According to him, no bespoke he has tried, has been better than Attolini.
Just to name a few bespoke houses and MTM he has tried:
-B&Tailor bespoke
-Sartoria Corcos bespoke
-He models for Orazio Luciano, so lots of mtm there
-Götrich's "made in England line and made in India line" bespoke
-Luxire's bespoke when they did their trunk show
-AW Bauer bespoke
-Shibumi's bespoke line
-Saman Amel mtm
-Eidos Napoli mtm
-Sartoria Partenopea mtm
-Zaremba bespoke
-Caruso mtm
-P Johnson mtm

Edit some translation errors from google:

-Measured before = MTM

-Costume= kostym(swedish)= suit

-Working armholes= Working buttonholes

-Handheld= Handmade

-Tailor made= bespoke

Size stitch- made to measure

Måttsytt med Cesare Attolini | Kingmagazine

Det är mycket skräddat för tillfället på Manolo. För någon vecka sedan skrev vi om de resande skräddarna NapoliSuMisura och idag tittar vi på en av de ledande kavaj- och kostymtillverkarna i världen.

www.manolo.se

Manolo måttsyr Cesare Attolini - Del I | Kingmagazine

Idag är det dags för första delen av tre där vi tittar närmare på processen och produktionen bakom en måttsydd kostym från Cesare Attolini. I första artikeln skall vi fokusera på måttagning och…

www.manolo.se

Manolo måttsyr Cesare Attolini - Del II | Kingmagazine

Idag är det dags för del två i vår artikelserie där vi redogör för hantverket och arbetsprocessen bakom vår måttsydda kostym från Cesare Attolini; branschens kanske främsta kostymtillverkare.

www.manolo.se

Manolo måttsyr Cesare Attolini - Del III | Kingmagazine

Så var det äntligen dags för den tredje och sista delen av vår artikelserie där vi ger vår syn på en måttsydd kostym från Cesare Attolini. I förra artikeln gick vi igenom företagets imponerande…

www.manolo.se

Andreas Weinås (@andreasweinas) • Instagram photos and videos

188K Followers, 729 Following, 1,255 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from Andreas Weinås (@andreasweinas)

www.instagram.com

 

[miani]

Cesare Attolini review by Andreas Weinås. It's in Swedish, but I'm sure it is readable if you use the translate button in Chrome browser. According to him, no bespoke he has tried, has been better than Attolini.
Just to name a few bespoke houses and MTM he has tried:
-B&Tailor bespoke
-Sartoria Corcos bespoke
-He models for Orazio Luciano, so lots of mtm there
-Götrich's "made in England line and made in India line" bespoke
-Luxire's bespoke when they did their trunk show
-AW Bauer bespoke
-Shibumi's bespoke line
-Saman Amel mtm
-Eidos Napoli mtm
-Sartoria Partenopea mtm
-Zaremba bespoke
-Caruso mtm
-P Johnson mtm

Edit some translation errors from google:

-Measured before = MTM

-Costume= kostym(swedish)= suit

-Working armholes= Working buttonholes

-Handheld= Handmade

-Tailor made= bespoke

Size stitch- made to measure

Måttsytt med Cesare Attolini | Kingmagazine

Det är mycket skräddat för tillfället på Manolo. För någon vecka sedan skrev vi om de resande skräddarna NapoliSuMisura och idag tittar vi på en av de ledande kavaj- och kostymtillverkarna i världen.

www.manolo.se

Manolo måttsyr Cesare Attolini - Del I | Kingmagazine

Idag är det dags för första delen av tre där vi tittar närmare på processen och produktionen bakom en måttsydd kostym från Cesare Attolini. I första artikeln skall vi fokusera på måttagning och…

www.manolo.se

Manolo måttsyr Cesare Attolini - Del II | Kingmagazine

Idag är det dags för del två i vår artikelserie där vi redogör för hantverket och arbetsprocessen bakom vår måttsydda kostym från Cesare Attolini; branschens kanske främsta kostymtillverkare.

www.manolo.se

Manolo måttsyr Cesare Attolini - Del III | Kingmagazine

Så var det äntligen dags för den tredje och sista delen av vår artikelserie där vi ger vår syn på en måttsydd kostym från Cesare Attolini. I förra artikeln gick vi igenom företagets imponerande…

www.manolo.se

Andreas Weinås (@andreasweinas) • Instagram photos and videos

188K Followers, 729 Following, 1,255 Posts - See Instagram photos and videos from Andreas Weinås (@andreasweinas)

www.instagram.com

Thanks for the link to this excellent article!