Concealed carry laws

[Ambulance Chaser]

The armed robbery thread veered off in a direction that I thought warranted its own thread, so here it is.

Several states have "concealed carry" laws that allow ordinary citizens to carry firearms on their person out in public.  Do you think these laws deter crime or create situations in which a non-lethal situation turns deadly?  I admit that I have not made up my mind on this issue.  I think that a criminal not wanting to confront an armed target sounds good in theory, but admit to being a bit unnerved at the prospect of the guy standing next to me on the subway packing heat.

Please discuss.

 

[VMan]

The armed robbery thread veered off in a direction that I thought warranted its own thread, so here it is.

Several states have "concealed carry" laws that allow ordinary citizens to carry firearms on their person out in public.  Do you think these laws deter crime or create situations in which a non-lethal situation turns deadly?  I admit that I have not made up my mind on this issue.  I think that a criminal not wanting to confront an armed target sounds good in theory, but admit to being a bit unnerved at the prospect of the guy standing next to me on the subway packing heat.

Please discuss.

Concealed weapons are illegal to carry in my state - though think this may be changed soon. This is what I think - the law is BS. If someone wants to use a gun for a bad purpose (robbery, murder), they'll carry it on them no matter what. They aren't going to let some law stop them. The only people that will use the law are those who want guns for self-defense (though I believe introducing a second weapon into a bad confrontation only makes it worse, if you are going to carry a weapon you need to strike first). It boils down to whoever pulls the heat first is the winner.

True story:
I was driving down a main street near my house, with my girlfriend in the car (3-lanes in each direction, pretty much a main drag, tons of retail stores on all sides). This is a main 'cruising' street at night for the kids. This was about 9:00 PM on a saturday night. Very nice part of town, virtually no crime at all, and certainly no murders or shootings. We were just driving and the car next to us with four guys in it starts pacing us. I turn to look, the guy rolls down his window and sticks a gun at me, saying "check out my piece". I just hit the brakes hard and turned off onto a side street. My point: though it is illegal to carry weapons in my state, people are still going to do it no matter what the law says.

 

[Renault78law]

The answer is easy for me...
Just try to remember every altercation you've ever had, then try to think how things may have turned out had you been strapped. What if the other person had been packin heat? For every crime deterred, I'd bet there would be hundreds of new crimes, ie assualt with a deadly weapon, attempted murder, murder, etc. Sheesh, the road rage is bad enough. Don't forget, the avg person is a complete idiot. The fewer guns on this earth the better.

 

[Mike]

If someone wants to use a gun for a bad purpose (robbery, murder), they'll carry it on them no matter what.  They aren't going to let some law stop them.  The only people that will use the law are those who want guns for self-defense (though I believe introducing a second weapon into a bad confrontation only makes it worse, if you are going to carry a weapon you need to strike first).

This is the complete problem with many of the gun control laws that continue to be put into effect. They only end up hurting the people who buy guns legally and who are more than likely going to be using them and storing them responsibly. If you are going to get a gun for any sort of illegal type behavior, you are more than likely going to get that gun from an illegal source (i.e. the black market). Meanwhile, people like my uncle, who likes shooting as a hobby and sport, has to go through miles of red tape to buy a simple .357 handgun. What would happen if they banned all guns tomorrow? Those people who had their guns registered (People who bought them legally) would have to turn them in or risk punishment. Those people who bought them illegally (e.g. buying a hot gun out of an illegal dealer's trunk) whould still have theirs. Thus, there would still be crimes commited with guns, and there would be no fear in the criminals that other people would have guns

So, do I believe that everyone should be packing? No, I know quite a few people who don't have enough responsibility to do that. I believe in prosecuting crimes commited with a gun harsher. By making a more strict sentence for crimes commited with a gun versus those commited with another weapon would possibly lower gun crime. Those crimes probably would still occur, but with a knife, hammer, baseball bat, or other weapon being used.

In my county people have to go to a training class and pass a test to be able to carry a concealed weapon. I think this is ok. If you take the time and effort to go to the class and pass it, you should be able to carry if you want.

 

[j]

Personally I like the Swiss model. That's what some of the "Founders" intended according to historical documents. Basically every able-bodied male has an assault rifle in his house. That's a real assault rifle, fully automatic. They don't have an army, they have a militia, which is everyone in the country. They have shooting ranges all over the place. Guess why they have never been successfully invaded? Contrast this with the current English model, where guns are for all practical purposes impossible to obtain. Crime is out of control and home invasion robbery is a favorite. Criminals can prey on anyone because they are guaranteed unarmed victims by their own government. A man who got his old shotgun and shot a burglar invading his home was sentenced to prison for it. Some studies (though admittedly somewhat flawed and in need of further research) have shown that where localities enact right-to-carry laws and citizens carry more guns, the crime there decreases. See More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott, among others. And yes, I am aware of the controversy about the author etc., but his research appears solid for the most part. 10 out of 10 criminals prefer unarmed victims. Of course I think there are lots of people who shouldn't have guns, but then again I think we should require IQ testing, English proficiency, physical testing, general aptitude tests, vision, hearing, etc for all drivers on the road. But that's a different thread.

 

[jcusey]

Personally I like the Swiss model. That's what some of the "Founders" intended according to historical documents. Basically every able-bodied male has an assault rifle in his house. That's a real assault rifle, fully automatic. ... Some studies (though admittedly somewhat flawed and in need of further research) have shown that where localities enact right-to-carry laws and citizens carry more guns, the crime there decreases. See More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott, among others. And yes, I am aware of the controversy about the author etc., but his research appears solid for the most part.

Most of the 13 colonies had some species of mandatory-ownership law at some point in their colonial history. Not assault rifles, of course. Regardless of whatever defects the Lott study has, the predicted increase of gun-related crime hasn't materialized in the many, many states that have passed concealed carry laws over the last few years.

 

[NavyStyles]

Criminals can prey on anyone because they are guaranteed unarmed victims by their own government. A man who got his old shotgun and shot a burglar invading his home was sentenced to prison for it.

WOW...

. That's ridiculous. I also favor the militia structure that the Founding Fathers envisioned. With a second civilian "army," no country seems vulnerable -- and individual citizens aren't either.

 

[Kai]

I live in Colorado. I have a concealed carry permit. I carry a compact Kahr .40 S&W automatic, pretty much all the time (kind of like the American Express Card, I don't leave home without it.) In the past 8 years I've had my permit, there have been a couple of occasions when I have been glad to have my gun, although I've never had to draw it. In order to obtain the permit, I had to go through a pretty rigorous background check, take a class, and go through an interview with the police department. Colorado has a pretty rational concealed carry system I think. If you are a law abiding person, and are willing to jump through the administrative hoops, you can get a permit in Colorado.

My interest in obtaining a permit had its roots in experiences I had in New York. When I lived in NYC years ago, I was the victim of one mugging and two attempted muggings, including one instance where I was chased for about 5 minutes by 8 armed men up and down a subway train. I was pretty frightened, because I knew that there was no way I could defend myself against eight people if I was caught.
I tried to get a concealed carry permit there, and they pretty much laughed at me. New York doesn't allow law abiding people to carry guns, and doesn't issue concealed carry permits to anyone outside of law enforcement.

I think that allowing people to obtain concealed carry permits is a good idea, provided that background checks are undertaken and provided that the applicant is either trained, or can pass some sort of test in handling a handgun. The reality of this world is that the police are not likely to be around to protect you in the event that you are put in a life threatening situation by a criminal. I'd rather have the option of self defense, rather than just hope that the police are able to catch and punish the perpetrator after the fact.

 

[VMan]

I live in Colorado.  I have a concealed carry permit.  I carry a compact Kahr .40 S&W automatic, pretty much all the time (kind of like the American Express Card, I don't leave home without it.)  In the past 8 years I've had my permit, there have been a couple of occasions when I have been glad to have my gun, although I've never had to draw it.  In order to obtain the permit, I had to go through a pretty rigorous background check, take a class, and go through an interview with the police department.  Colorado has a pretty rational concealed carry system I think.  If you are a law abiding person, and are willing to jump through the administrative hoops, you can get a permit in Colorado.  

My interest in obtaining a permit had its roots in experiences I had in New York.  When I lived in NYC years ago, I was the victim of one mugging and two attempted muggings, including one instance where I was chased for about 5 minutes by 8 armed men up and down a subway train.  I was pretty frightened, because I knew that there was no way I could defend myself against eight people if I was caught.    
I tried to get a concealed carry permit there, and they pretty much laughed at me.  New York doesn't allow law abiding people to carry guns, and doesn't issue concealed carry permits to anyone outside of law enforcement.    

I think that allowing people to obtain concealed carry permits is a good idea, provided that background checks are undertaken and provided that the applicant is either trained, or can pass some sort of test in handling a handgun.  The reality of this world is that the police are not likely to be around to protect you in the event that you are put in a life threatening situation by a criminal.  I'd rather have the option of self defense, rather than just hope that the police are able to catch and punish the perpetrator after the fact.

You provided a perfect example of exactly what I was trying to say in this thread and the other thread about muggings (that later turned into a weapons debate).

 

[ken]

Right now, I'm pretty sure only 3 or 4 states (plus DC) absolutely forbid concealed carry (and, of course, I was born in one of them). Other states have varying difficulties in obtaining a permit to carry a firearm. If I continue to live in Illinois, I just might try the loophole of carrying a gun in a fanny pack or something so it's technically in a case. Does Costume National make fanny packs?

The most important thing people can do is teach their kids respect, not fear, of guns. My old man has taken me huntin and shootin since I was 7 years old, and today I wouldn't point an unloaded BB gun at another human.

 

[Mike]

The most important thing people can do is teach their kids respect, not fear, of guns. My old man has taken me huntin and shootin since I was 7 years old, and today I wouldn't point an unloaded BB gun at another human.

Amen, brother. My buddy's older brother recently got a shotgun for hunting and home protection and a pistol. He has a 5 year old daughter and he has told everyone that as soon as she gets a little older he is taking her to gun training classes. I've gone to the range a few times with my uncle and was taught basic gun safety by him from a young age. The gun itself is not the scary thing, its some dumbass on the other end pointing it at you that's scary.

 

[PeterMetro]

My interest in obtaining a permit had its roots in experiences I had in New York.  When I lived in NYC years ago, I was the victim of one mugging and two attempted muggings, including one instance where I was chased for about 5 minutes by 8 armed men up and down a subway train.  I was pretty frightened, because I knew that there was no way I could defend myself against eight people if I was caught.

I understand why you would want a gun in this situation, but what would you have done with your Smith and Wesson at this point? Turned the subway into the OK Corrale? Instead of one scared guy and 8 thwarted muggers, we'd have 8 or maybe 9 dead people, not to mention anyone else who happened to be on the subway?

 

[Kai]

Quote:

My interest in obtaining a permit had its roots in experiences I had in New York. Â When I lived in NYC years ago, I was the victim of one mugging and two attempted muggings, including one instance where I was chased for about 5 minutes by 8 armed men up and down a subway train. Â I was pretty frightened, because I knew that there was no way I could defend myself against eight people if I was caught.
I understand why you would want a gun in this situation, but what would you have done with your Smith and Wesson at this point? Â Turned the subway into the OK Corrale? Â Instead of one scared guy and 8 thwarted muggers, we'd have 8 or maybe 9 dead people, not to mention anyone else who happened to be on the subway?
If I had had a gun at the time, I would not have done anything differently. I still would have run. However, if I hadn't been so lucky as to escape, then the gun would have given me another option, other than being stabbed, injured or killed. If I'd had a gun and escape was not possible, yes, I would have defended myself, even if it meant killing my assailants. I make no apologies for that. As far as killing other people on the subway, there weren't any at the time.