College Education Advice

[soonami]

Ok, I've browsed through this thread and I will say most of the advise here is good, but some general points:

1. Going to your own state school is a great bargain. With more high school kids applying to university now, it is much more difficult to get accepted now than 10 years before, but it is by all means not impossible. It all comes down to numbers at state schools since it's impossible for admission boards to read over 25 thousand applications each year.

2. It doesn't matter where you go for undergrad if you are planning on going to grad school. When you apply for grad school undergrad GPA is important, but standardized test scores and recommendations often play a bigger role in the admission process.

3. Do not choose to go to a school based on the programs it specifically offers because it is likely that you will change your mind some point during your tenure at the school.

4. And going to a school based on the fact that it has a good pre-med program is a really bad idea simply because most pre-meds do not make it through the program. Many high school kids underestimate the difficulty of college level science classes, where grades are decided on a standardized bell curve. Meaning only the top 10-15% of the class will receive an "A" in bio, chem, physics, calc classes. It's not at all like high schools where anyone getting a 90% on a class gets and A. In most science classes, you'll have 3-4 exams a year and the average class grade on these exams can be as low 55%, so you will really need to differentiate yourself.

5. If you want to earn a lot money over your life time you will need to seriously consider graduate school. With so many people getting Bachelor's degrees now, even if you have a degree from a good school, it will not be enough to guarantee you a great job with upward mobility potential. Sure plenty of people with undergraduate degrees, esp. in Engineering and the physical sciences, will get jobs that pay $40-50k a year (I have one). But the upper earning potential is very limited and although $50k a year is no joke, with 6 years of grad school you can more than double that.

6. Although humanities social science classes are easier and at times more interesting, I would not suggest you major in one. Often people with these degrees graduate without any solid job offers. I graduated from an Ivy, and I know plenty of PoliSci and Econ majors with GPAs over 3.0 without decent job offers. If you like this stuff, then add it as a double major (like I did with PSci) but if you make it your major you had better love it and be ready to work really hard without much monetary compensation. Or you could major in something like this and jack up your GPA for when you apply to Law or Business School.

7. When you pick a school make sure you don't just pick the highest ranked institution. Pick the school in the social and physical environment that you like. If you are a middle class kid from the South, a lib arts school in NE will probably not be place where you will find people to relate to. Likewise, if you are from a metropolitan area then a school in the suburbs or rural country will be very disappointing. Make sure you visit the school, sit in on some classes and try to spend the night with someone who will take your around. Many schools will set up pre-frosh with a student to show them around.

8. If at all possible do not let money dictate where you go. I realize it will be hard to consider the thousands of dollars in debt you will accrue when you are still a kid, but you have a lifetime to pay off student debt. Really no price is too high to pay for your happiness, just make sure where you choose to go and what you choose to do will really make you happy

 

[GQgeek]

Originally Posted by jesse10

So I am going to be a senior this upcoming school year, I am located in Miami, and I am currently ranked #6 in my class. I don't know where to start in searching for a college to attend. I also do not know what exactly to study. My family income is just over the minimum needed for financial aid so I can't go to an overly expensive school unless I want to spend the rest of my life paying for it. I am thinking of attending the University of Florida simply because it would be less expensive for me as a resident of Florida and it is probably the best school in the state. I noticed many of the members hear are well educated and relatively wealthy so I wanted to ask you guys for some advice: what should I or should I not do? What colleges did you attend that you can recommend? What career would you suggest? ( I am great in math over anything else) What mistakes did you guys make with your education or career that you wish you would not have?

thank you in advance..

I wish someone had told me this when I started, but study something you're really interested in. More CEOs have BAs than any other degree. Doing an arts degree shouldn't limit you. Your major is almost irrelevant except for certain specific jobs. Don't chase careers that you think will make you wealthy with a specific degree. B.Coms are a dime a dozen and there's nothing special about them. If you go in to business you can always do an MBA later, and the chances are that you'll have to for some career-paths anyway.

University is more fun and you'll do better if you're sincerely interested in the subject matter. For most jobs, all that really matters is that piece of paper and how you present yourself afterwards. You can make-up for perceived weaknesses in a cover letter, or work part-time while doing your degree. That always looks good, especially if you can get a job with real responsabilities.

I've switched programs thinking I'd like this or that career so many times that it's kind of depressing. I finally realized I should just study what I love and forget about what sort of career it will get me in to. I'm rolling everything else in to a couple of minors. If anyone is curious, I'm going to finish with a Major in Classics and minors in business and biology. I should have done this a long time ago.

EDIT: my situation is influenced by already having a good job and a career path in IT, but i think you should consider some of these points nonetheless.

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by soonami

2. It doesn't matter where you go for undergrad if you are planning on going to grad school. When you apply for grad school undergrad GPA is important, but standardized test scores and recommendations often play a bigger role in the admission process.

Recommendations from well-known faculty, which you're more likely to get at a more prestigous school, will help. Saying it doesn't matter where you go to undergrad is deceptive, because it does matter, especially for competitive grad schools, such as medicine.

4. And going to a school based on the fact that it has a good pre-med program is a really bad idea simply because most pre-meds do not make it through the program. Many high school kids underestimate the difficulty of college level science classes, where grades are decided on a standardized bell curve. Meaning only the top 10-15% of the class will receive an "A" in bio, chem, physics, calc classes. It's not at all like high schools where anyone getting a 90% on a class gets and A. In most science classes, you'll have 3-4 exams a year and the average class grade on these exams can be as low 55%, so you will really need to differentiate yourself.

I'd agree with this, a good pre-med program most likely means the school will simply be more competitive. Certain schools are notoriously bad for pre-med, especially in CA.

5. If you want to earn a lot money over your life time you will need to seriously consider graduate school. With so many people getting Bachelor's degrees now, even if you have a degree from a good school, it will not be enough to guarantee you a great job with upward mobility potential. Sure plenty of people with undergraduate degrees, esp. in Engineering and the physical sciences, will get jobs that pay $40-50k a year (I have one). But the upper earning potential is very limited and although $50k a year is no joke, with 6 years of grad school you can more than double that.

That's really not true IMO. Average starting salary for undergrads at my alma mater is more than $50k per year and over $60k in some fields. Top undergrad business graduates are averaging $60k or so starting salary, and those going into consulting or IB will be making significantly more than that. My starting salary coming out of undergrad was over $100k ten years ago...

6. Although humanities social science classes are easier and at times more interesting, I would not suggest you major in one. Often people with these degrees graduate without any solid job offers. I graduated from an Ivy, and I know plenty of PoliSci and Econ majors with GPAs over 3.0 without decent job offers. If you like this stuff, then add it as a double major (like I did with PSci) but if you make it your major you had better love it and be ready to work really hard without much monetary compensation. Or you could major in something like this and jack up your GPA for when you apply to Law or Business School.

While more people are going directly from undergrad to business school, work experience is still going to be important, and having a major (or at least a good subset) of quantitiative classes may be
useful for business type courses.

7. When you pick a school make sure you don't just pick the highest ranked institution. Pick the school in the social and physical environment that you like. If you are a middle class kid from the South, a lib arts school in NE will probably not be place where you will find people to relate to. Likewise, if you are from a metropolitan area then a school in the suburbs or rural country will be very disappointing. Make sure you visit the school, sit in on some classes and try to spend the night with someone who will take your around. Many schools will set up pre-frosh with a student to show them around.

Good advice.

 

[leftover_salmon]

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

That's really not true IMO. Average starting salary for undergrads at my alma mater is more than $50k per year and over $60k in some fields. Top undergrad business graduates are averaging $60k or so starting salary, and those going into consulting or IB will be making significantly more than that. My starting salary coming out of undergrad was over $100k ten years ago...

Perhaps you're confusing salary with bonus here? I go to Penn, so I'm pretty in touch with 1st-year consulting/IB compensation, and while $100k all-in is a low range for IB, salary is still almost always $60-75k a year with few exceptions.

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by leftover_salmon

Perhaps you're confusing salary with bonus here? I go to Penn, so I'm pretty in touch with 1st-year consulting/IB compensation, and while $100k all-in is a low range for IB, salary is still almost always $60-75k a year with few exceptions.

I'm a little bit unclear about what you're asking? I was referring to salary with the numbers I was quoting. I'm aware base salaries for IB are in the range you're discussing, while consulting offers tend to be in the same range or slightly higher but with lower bonus potential. When I worked in IB the bonus structure was significantly different than it is now.

 

[leftover_salmon]

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

I'm a little bit unclear about what you're asking? I was referring to salary with the numbers I was quoting. I'm aware base salaries for IB are in the range you're discussing, while consulting offers tend to be in the same range or slightly higher but with lower bonus potential. When I worked in IB the bonus structure was significantly different than it is now.


I was more curious about how you were pulling $100k in salary 10 years ago.

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by leftover_salmon

I was more curious about how you were pulling $100k in salary 10 years ago.
I was referring to overall compensation but the overall starting salary for my major was still over 60k, even in 1998 (although clearly I went into IB and not engineering). The salary numbers I was referring to were more recent. Average starting salaries for graduates from selected top tier schools appear to be 50-65k, neglecting bonuses.

 

[leftover_salmon]

Originally Posted by drizzt3117

I was referring to overall compensation but the overall starting salary for my major was still over 60k, even in 1998 (although clearly I went into IB and not engineering). The salary numbers I was referring to were more recent. Average starting salaries for graduates from selected top tier schools appear to be 50-65k, neglecting bonuses.

That makes sense. Now I can go to bed.

 

[eg1]

Originally Posted by GQgeek

I wish someone had told me this when I started, but study something you're really interested in. More CEOs have BAs than any other degree. Doing an arts degree shouldn't limit you. Your major is almost irrelevant except for certain specific jobs. Don't chase careers that you think will make you wealthy with a specific degree. B.Coms are a dime a dozen and there's nothing special about them. If you go in to business you can always do an MBA later, and the chances are that you'll have to for some career-paths anyway.

University is more fun and you'll do better if you're sincerely interested in the subject matter. For most jobs, all that really matters is that piece of paper and how you present yourself afterwards. You can make-up for perceived weaknesses in a cover letter, or work part-time while doing your degree. That always looks good, especially if you can get a job with real responsabilities.

I've switched programs thinking I'd like this or that career so many times that it's kind of depressing. I finally realized I should just study what I love and forget about what sort of career it will get me in to. I'm rolling everything else in to a couple of minors. If anyone is curious, I'm going to finish with a Major in Classics and minors in business and biology. I should have done this a long time ago.

EDIT: my situation is influenced by already having a good job and a career path in IT, but i think you should consider some of these points nonetheless.

I have heard studies indicate a high correlation between vocabulary and career prospects:

http://www.jocrf.org/resources/vocabulary.html

 

[rdawson808]

Originally Posted by soonami

science classes, where grades are decided on a standardized bell curve. Meaning only the top 10-15% of the class will receive an "A" in bio, chem, physics, calc classes.

6. Although humanities social science classes are easier and at times more interesting, I would not suggest you major in one. Often people with these degrees graduate without any solid job offers. I graduated from an Ivy, and I know plenty of PoliSci and Econ majors with GPAs over 3.0 without decent job offers.


Much of what Soonami said is good advice, but I would like to add/clarify/disagree with these two points.

For starters, not all classes are stricly graded on a bell curve. In fact, I know not a single professor who fits his or her class's grades to a bell curve. Why not? The simple reason that it allows for students who earn one grade be forced down to a different (lower) one. That's not fair, nor does it reflect what the student actually earned.

Second, all data available say that economics is a very good major to graduate with in order to get a job. Anedoctal evidence means nothing with this. the Dept of Labor continually ranks econ as one of the highest earning majors out of college. Econ majors also score very highly in std-ized tests for law, grad, and bus. school.

Finally, whether or not a humanities or social science (two different "fields") class is "easier" than a (presumably) hard science class completely depends on the individual. I can't count the number of bio, chem, and physics majors who struggled to get through my classes. And some of my (econ major) advisees who had troubles in humanities (philosophy, art, lit) classes. It all depends on the individual.

b

 

[drizzt3117]

Originally Posted by rdawson808

For starters, not all classes are stricly graded on a bell curve. In fact, I know not a single professor who fits his or her class's grades to a bell curve. Why not? The simple reason that it allows for students who earn one grade be forced down to a different (lower) one. That's not fair, nor does it reflect what the student actually earned.

That just depends on the goal of the course. While I don't necessarily think it's a good idea, some schools have "weed-out" courses in science curriculum that are designed to thin the amount of people in science majors (read, pre-med). I read somewhere that 75% of college freshmen who claimed they were "pre-med" graduated with degrees that weren't in the sciences. Some schools, but relatively few, do use a completely normal distribution with the mean score being a C (i.e. no grade inflation) but that's relatively infrequent.

Second, all data available say that economics is a very good major to graduate with in order to get a job. Anedoctal evidence means nothing with this. the Dept of Labor continually ranks econ as one of the highest earning majors out of college. Econ majors also score very highly in std-ized tests for law, grad, and bus. school.

I'd agree with this assessment.

Finally, whether or not a humanities or social science (two different "fields") class is "easier" than a (presumably) hard science class completely depends on the individual. I can't count the number of bio, chem, and physics majors who struggled to get through my classes. And some of my (econ major) advisees who had troubles in humanities (philosophy, art, lit) classes. It all depends on the individual.

I somewhat agree with this. Certainly some people have a harder time with humanities then they do with science. That said, going along with the first point, not only is the intention different in some lower-division science courses, but the competition is as well. If 90% of students in a lower division required science course, like organic chemistry, are ostensibly premed, and are very concerned with their grades, as opposed to a portion of people in a humanities course taking it because of personal interest and/or major requirement in a field where your undergrad grades aren't important, then by definition it becomes harder if the course is evaluated on a curve. Of course, your abilities are the most important factor in any case, but competitition also plays into the overall equation.

 

[GQgeek]

Originally Posted by eg1

I have heard studies indicate a high correlation between vocabulary and career prospects:

http://www.jocrf.org/resources/vocabulary.html

My take is that BAs are, on average, more interesting people than people with other degrees. Science, engineering, cs, and math majors are for the most part freakin' boring to talk to and have less than stellar social skills. Once in a while you'll meet someone that's able to make it all sound interesting to a lay person, or actually has knowledge in another area, but most of the time their knowledge is irrelevant because their topics almost never come-up in regular conversation.
Most science/math/eng students are completely ignorant of anything outside their narrow field of study because that's all they've done since high school. Many of them may be smart and have great quant skills, but I'm not convinced many of them would do well outside their chosen field. The average salary for BSc is like 30-40k. A masters would get you 40-50k. PhDs might see 70-low hundreds. And of course that six-fig salary doesn't start until they're 40 yrs. old. Scientists are way under-paid imo.

Business students on the other hand, even at a relatively good school, are very mediocre thinkers. So unless you intend on being the very top of your class, a business degree won't guarantee you anything. My experience trying to lead multiple group projects at McGill was something i never understood. We'd have groups of 5-6 and most of the time there was maybe one other person with good ideas, leadership ability, and good research and writing skills. Maybe it would have been different at an Ivy. I don't know.

Getting back to my main point, I think that knowledge of art, history, or literature is much more relevant in regular conversations. How often does a knowledge of history play a part in CE discussions? The past is both relevant and fascinating. Tourism in many countries is largely driven by fascination with the past. Who are our favorite posters? Mine are the ones with the greatest knowledge of past and current events. Everyone likes interesting people with intelligent things to say. Advancing in a company has a political element to it. If you are able to talk to a varied array of people and making them like, your chances for advancing increase. BAs are at an advantage here imo.

 

[chronoaug]

I somewhat take offense to the statement that humanities classes are easier. It very much depends on the classes you take and at what levels. The lower level intro humanities classes are not overly difficult, but they're certainly not easy(depending on the teacher). Like others have already said, there are a million freshman pre-meds at every school, so the intro to chem/bio/physics, etc... classes are difficult. But again, it depends on the person. I'm a history major, but i've always had a very easy time with chemistry. Even when not taking a chemistry class, i used to help a good friend with her chemistry just because my mind understood it quite well.

Another reason, high level humanities classes are difficult is because there is no way to fully prepare for tests and papers. My only B has been in this 3000 level african history class where the teacher didn't even grade the papers/tests, it was some weird grad student that was a terrible grader. He counted me off for a lack of detail, when it was there, but just later in the paper, and other things. My girlfriend(an english literature major), has received very different grades depending on the teachers. She was on of the only 3 As in a 4000 level shakespeare class when a large percentage of the class received Fs for their large paper.

In science/math fields there is always a right and wrong answer, but in history/english classes, you can be 100% correct, but still get a D in the class. Proper arguement structure, and writing techniques are very important as well. Finding and understanding primary sources from over 1000 years ago and then turning it along with other info from previous classes into an original and interesting argument is often more difficult than it seems. Not to mention the endless books, reading assignments and constant essays makes it very very time consuming.

I don't want to start a practical majors vs. humanities debate or about which one is more difficult because upper level science/math classes are absolutely nuts. A friend of mine is probably one of the top 2 math students in all of UCF(he graduates this winter) and the kid has an insane mind. I'm beyong jealous. I just felt like defending humanities majors as being thought of as an easy/worthless field of study is kind of insulting.


GQ geek is kind of right on this too. There are obviously exceptions, but business, science and engineering majors are pretty tought to talk to. Everyone here at uf, fsu and ucf that don't know what to major in just do business. A large % of them are your average uninteresting frat guys who act and look like complete stereotypes. The engineering students at UF(it's a huge department) are all basically band kids from high school and extremely socially awkward. The liberal arts majors are a mixed bag. There are a lot of frat or other pre law guys getting a major in history or philosophy because it looks good for law school. There are also some stereotype hippie type people, and there are some normal people. I'm just lucky i'm in classical/medieval history and russian history/literature because most of the people in those classes are only there because they really like history and the subject, not just a stepping stone to law school.

That's just generalizations though. The best friend i've met up here is a grad student in speech/debate stuff and another really good friend is a business major. A good amount of my friends i knew from high school are engineers. They are socially awkward and kinda nerdy but i love em' anyways.

 

[philosophe]

I've been teaching for a long time and have taught at both public and private institutions. One thing I can tell you for sure is that the vast majority of students underestimate the quantum leap between high school courses and serious university-level work, be it in the sciences or the humanities. Students from very good high schools are used to working hard and being challenged, but most high schools just don't provide that kind of environment.

I second the suggestion that you study something you enjoy and are good at. College forces a lot of us to learn our strengths and weaknesses; things were were easy or manageable in high school turn out to be more difficult at a higher level and in a more competitive pool of students. I teach philosophy (surprise!). Many of my students take philosophy as a second major. They're afraid of what they'd do with just a philosophy major (though going to law school, med school, into IB are paths that my college cohort of phil majors took, not to mention those of who went the academic path), so they do philosophy for love and something else with an eye to "practical life." It is really important to study things that genuinely interest you. After all, life is more than going to work, and a good college education should cultivate your sense of intellectual adventure and passion.

Hope this helps.

 

[thinman]

You're getting a lot of good advice here, especially from nyf, rdawson, and philosophe.

As a graduate of a small private college who now teaches at a large state school, I will add that there are many important differences between the two. At a small school, professors are generally more accessible, so if you are shy or non-assertive, this can be an advantage. Large state schools generally provide more opportunities in academics, research, extracurricular activities, and social life, though. You just need to be more aggressive and/or outgoing to find them and to stand out. So you should realistically assess your personality and decide where you would be most comfortable. I'm convinced you can get just as good an education at a large state school as you can at a small private one if you put in the effort. So don't let other people's opinions limit where you apply.

I would also generally recommend you go to the best school where you think you can excel and where you can enjoy life. Having the Princeton name (for example) on your diploma will do you no good if your grades suck. Likewise, find a major you love and can do well in. And don't forget to try new things, explore a lot of new interests and *have fun* (my biggest regret).

Edit: I will also add that my undergrad education was the best investment of time and money I've ever made, even more than grad school. It's given me a tremendous knowledge base for my professional career, unique problem-solving skills, and basic knowledge and curiousity about other areas so I can continue learning and growing on my own.