Cashmere Sweater Hierarchy

[SartoriaModerna]

Personally I avoid anything made in China.

This is a very sad response. Eric Bompard is connected to Erdos, but not the same company as Erdos. While Erdos is a stakeholder, the majority of the ownership is French. It is true that for most garments from EB, the manufacturing process are vertically integrated within Mongolia (China) and then sold internationally, however EB also have a program called "Atelier Bompard" where garments are fully made in France by local workers.

But on that note, EB also publicly said that the manufacturing process and knowhow within Mongolia (China) is much more advanced than in EU, therefore it is very hard to bring all manufacturing back and expand "atelier Bompard" fully, not only because of the higher cost, but also because of the actual unobtainable techniques and knowhow.

This proves how manufacturing processes in the far East have improved over the last decade and it certainly isn't made possible by some 15yo kid endangering his life in a sweatshop.

note: I'm in no way affiliated with EB, just did some research before and watches some interviews.

I would add, political reasons.

this is another very sad response IMO. First of all, you are boycotting the brands that prefer outsourcing/setting up factories in China, not China itself. For lots of brands, this is just mere strategic decision essentially based on demand & supply of labour (demand & supply in a free market is a great invention of the Western business philosophy). Yet, you are penalizing these companies just because they are doing viable business ?

Concerning child& forced labour, if you trust the company/brand you're buying from, then there mostly won't be an issue. Even LP has plants in Mongolia to process cashmere yarn, do you think the workers there are Children too? With that said, I do see why you don't want to support local Chinese brands without the transparency but boycotting all brands that outsource there might not be the same as you think.

Secondly, with all due respect, why are you even buying cashmere garments may I ask? Even though many cashmere garments are made elsewhere than China. The yarn comes from Mongolia (China) .. to process the yarn, many international companies set up plants/factories in Mongolia and the Chinese earn money with it OR local Cashmere giants such as Erdos sell cashmere yarn to cashmere brands all over the world. You inevitably buy Chinese anyway.

Forced labour
Child labour
Poor manufacturing practices
Under payed workers
Low saftey
environmental concerns to workers and environment

Christ, these are the ones I can pick off the top of my head. Remember apple workers suicide rate was high?.

I don't intend to spark a political debate, I'm sure nobody here wants that. However, I'd like to point out that what you state if factually incorrect.

The suicides you are referring to, are Foxconn employees, they don't do work solely for Apple but many other brands too. All suicides known to date are NOT children and the people working there weren't forced to do so. The suicidal factors were mostly depression due to long working hours AND low pay. = disproportion of the two factors.

The minimum wage in China is indeed low(er), but Foxconn suicides was so prominent because the output of work hours were disproportional to the minimum wage. Implying low wages alone causes suicides is statistically wrong as it's always a proportion to the workload. This happened at Foxconn and probably few others but there are millions other multinationals in China and local Chinese giant companies where there are no issues with "underpaying" leading to suicides.

The telecom sector in France had many suicidal cases too between 2006-2011, with a climax around 2009 in the GFC. (and is still ongoing by the way with 19 cases in 2019 alone at Orange) This while France is actually regarded as one of the most developed countries in EU with good working conditions. With that said, such cases happen elsewhere too. Depression, burn-outs, bad work-life balance, disproportional wage to output is a common problem in today's society all around the world. Just because it happens in China, it immediately sticks in people's head that China is the sole cruel country. Food for thought, isn't?

--

Again, I don't intend to start a political debate, I just think it's important to get the facts straight. I hope this is a forum where everyone and every brand can be appreciated and that we don't discriminate some brands due to some prejudices. If some members don't think my message is right, then just DM me so I can remove it .

 

[HotDilf]

The best cashmere comes from the Alashan region of Inner Mongolia, China, who continues to dominate the global production output for cashmere. So it would be rather difficult - although not impossible - to avoid buying cashmere of chinese origin. Few alternatives that come to mind include peruvian alpaca (or vicuna), australian wool, english shetland and of course mongolian cashmere, from Mongolia.

Incidentally, I believe most of the esteemed Scottish establishments like William Lockie and Barrie still source their yarns from Todd & Duncan, which is Chinese-owned.

 

[Johnny80]

While all of you said something true...bottom line, what we are really talking about is the end product quality, fit, craftsmanship this is what im obsess with and will be for the rest of my life
For me, the product itself speaks and from that, after almost a decade and a half of legally inside and in person quality mandatory checks and tests...there is still no doubt that from general purpose (again general point of view, not that X brand is better than the lowest European brand Y) there is no doubt that Italy and Scotland have the upper hand, followed by Japanese , Chinese and , maybe this will surprise some of you USA
Like we talk in our line of work, comparing Apples to Apples top of the line Italian maker will never be compared to the top of the line Chinese maker (still), i dont know how it will be 10 years from now. But in the past and still in the present this is how things still are. We still prefer Japanese made knits to Chinese ones.
Now, if we talk about the fit , where this is very important...Scotland for most of the asians is out of the question not because of the quality but because of the fit...Scotland doesnt have many top tier makers that make RTW very small and small knits for the most asians...so for them, is far more cheaper and better to buy what their own country makes because it is made intentionally for them
Remember what i said last year...for me fit and quality are both important, if the fit is on point but the construction/quality is garbage that is not a good end product for myself and not even for you who pay your own money to an unknown and non-family company.

 

[Johnny80]

Incidentally, I believe most of the esteemed Scottish establishments like William Lockie and Barrie still source their yarns from Todd & Duncan, which is Chinese-owned.

Yes ,Todd and Duncan is an Scotland mill located in Lochleven Mills, that is owned by Ningxia Zhongyin

 

[msimon]

This is a very sad response. Eric Bompard is connected to Erdos, but not the same company as Erdos. While Erdos is a stakeholder, the majority of the ownership is French. It is true that for most garments from EB, the manufacturing process are vertically integrated within Mongolia (China) and then sold internationally, however EB also have a program called "Atelier Bompard" where garments are fully made in France by local workers.

But on that note, EB also publicly said that the manufacturing process and knowhow within Mongolia (China) is much more advanced than in EU, therefore it is very hard to bring all manufacturing back and expand "atelier Bompard" fully, not only because of the higher cost, but also because of the actual unobtainable techniques and knowhow.

This proves how manufacturing processes in the far East have improved over the last decade and it certainly isn't made possible by some 15yo kid endangering his life in a sweatshop.

note: I'm in no way affiliated with EB, just did some research before and watches some interviews.



this is another very sad response IMO. First of all, you are boycotting the brands that prefer outsourcing/setting up factories in China, not China itself. For lots of brands, this is just mere strategic decision essentially based on demand & supply of labour (demand & supply in a free market is a great invention of the Western business philosophy). Yet, you are penalizing these companies just because they are doing viable business ?

Concerning child& forced labour, if you trust the company/brand you're buying from, then there mostly won't be an issue. Even LP has plants in Mongolia to process cashmere yarn, do you think the workers there are Children too? With that said, I do see why you don't want to support local Chinese brands without the transparency but boycotting all brands that outsource there might not be the same as you think.

Secondly, with all due respect, why are you even buying cashmere garments may I ask? Even though many cashmere garments are made elsewhere than China. The yarn comes from Mongolia (China) .. to process the yarn, many international companies set up plants/factories in Mongolia and the Chinese earn money with it OR local Cashmere giants such as Erdos sell cashmere yarn to cashmere brands all over the world. You inevitably buy Chinese anyway.



I don't intend to spark a political debate, I'm sure nobody here wants that. However, I'd like to point out that what you state if factually incorrect.

The suicides you are referring to, are Foxconn employees, they don't do work solely for Apple but many other brands too. All suicides known to date are NOT children and the people working there weren't forced to do so. The suicidal factors were mostly depression due to long working hours AND low pay. = disproportion of the two factors.

The minimum wage in China is indeed low(er), but Foxconn suicides was so prominent because the output of work hours were disproportional to the minimum wage. Implying low wages alone causes suicides is statistically wrong as it's always a proportion to the workload. This happened at Foxconn and probably few others but there are millions other multinationals in China and local Chinese giant companies where there are no issues with "underpaying" leading to suicides.

The telecom sector in France had many suicidal cases too between 2006-2011, with a climax around 2009 in the GFC. (and is still ongoing by the way with 19 cases in 2019 alone at Orange) This while France is actually regarded as one of the most developed countries in EU with good working conditions. With that said, such cases happen elsewhere too. Depression, burn-outs, bad work-life balance, disproportional wage to output is a common problem in today's society all around the world. Just because it happens in China, it immediately sticks in people's head that China is the sole cruel country. Food for thought, isn't?

--

Again, I don't intend to start a political debate, I just think it's important to get the facts straight. I hope this is a forum where everyone and every brand can be appreciated and that we don't discriminate some brands due to some prejudices. If some members don't think my message is right, then just DM me so I can remove it .

Actually I appreciate your hard hitting reality check and corrections. I still avoid made in China because the vast amount never lasts me but there are some fine products being made like Nikon lenses.

 

[fabricateurialist]

mail day

basics first

Measurements - are accurate, BUT they vary by model

Fit - everything is a bit longer compared to the Italian or Scottish brands, it's very much "central European" with slightly broader shoulders but not as roomy of a chest as the Scottish, a tad wider and longer than the Italians (I can provide some fit pics, just didn't have the time this morning, I'm a 48IT, picked M for all items)

Hand feel - they are all ultra soft, not sure what to make of it, but it's what your average consumer imagines cashmere feels like

All items come with extra thread in a little pouch, something that more brands should/could offer

Here are the four garments
First, the Fair Isle "8ply", it is the lightest of all the sweaters by quite some margin and fits beautifully

The 4ply quarter zip in "Vicuna", not the biggest fan of the zipper construction; I've seen this better executed at JoE and other brands in the same price range; the synthetic threads used to hold the zipper in place poke out a tiny bit - which was difficult to capture in the third image, but they can be noticeably felt when grabbing the zipper. The fourth Image is taken against the light so you can see the weave density for yourself

The third item is a classic gray 4ply v-neck, a color which, for some reason, is/was missing in rotation. In images three and four, you can spot a white fiber standing up in the center of each image, and this isn't cashmere but what feels like synthetic. While it's labeled as 100% cashmere, mixing 1%-3% of whatever this is still, passes under EU regulations

Last but not the least, the pièce de résistance, an anthrazite 12ply "jacket"
it's thick, it's dense, it's heavy, and the cut is indeed somewhere in between a cardigan and a jacket. The construction is, well, see for yourself

One last note, a single hair stuck out on one of the sweaters, and, while impossible to catch on camera, it was in the 36mm length range; dissecting a piece systematically would certainly provide a better sample size, but their claims of using the "best quality"/Grade A appears to be true

 

[DorianGreen]

@fabricateurialist and @Sartoria Moderna, I understand your objections, that are mostly correct.
Nowadays it's basically impossible not to buy/use anything, that has nothing to do with China: even American hi-tech products from Apple have components made in China, and the same happens in the automobile industry and in other branches. Yet I think that is appropriate to do something against a state that oppresses its population, discriminates ethnic and political minorities, and that internationally has imperialistic ambitions and stays on the side of Russia against the Western democracies.
Possibly it's just something symbolic that would not change the things significantly, at least in the short term, still this is my stance and my intent.

I was not speaking of Bompard specifically, I certainly would buy a good knit made in France, even if the yarn is sourced in China.

 

[whovertw]

Does anyone have experience with Iris von Arnim's cashmere quality?
Looks like it listed in the spreadsheet, but there's no other information about it.
Their own description made it sound like quality stuff. Looks like they are made in Italy.

 

[anaxagoras]

Found this on my closet shelf today—don’t really know how it ended up there. The only dim memory I have is that it may be from Cashmere House in Zurich ca. 2005. Surprised to see the 100% spun in Scotland + Made in Italy on the lable. Not sure you’d see that on an Italian article today (I mean, they wouldn’t feel compelled to put it there today, but maybe I’m mistaken).

 

[Amidé]

Yes, in deed!

I already had in mind our fellow's @Amidé images, firstly because he is an AV and therefore his photography has to be (and is!) very professional, secondly because the garments' images' depiction follows a certain iteration, and finally because they (the images) are presently available.

So, material aside, the Fair isle Lambswool's armhole is not only clearly more closed than the Super Geelong one's, but to illustrate it, if you draw a straight line from the apex of the latter's "V", the line would end inside the armhole, whereas the relevant straight line in the case of the Lambswool falls below the armhole.

Needless to say, that my screen visual observation leads me to the conclusion that the pit-to-pit measurements as a proxy of chest size may not be 100% comparable - and therefore caution is needed - as the bottom of the Lambswool's armpits is much, much higher in the garment compared to the Super Geelong one!

Perhaps one gentleman here with WL waistcoats in both qualities would be kind enough to contribute to this discussion.


Best,

Dimitris

By the way Dimitris, if all goes well Amidé Hadelin should be offering Fair Isle sleeveless cardigans with a lower cut armhole this autumn/winter, among other things.

 

[Bespoke DJP]

By the way Dimitris, if all goes well Amidé Hadelin should be offering Fair Isle sleeveless cardigans with a lower cut armhole this autumn/winter, among other things.

I am glad to hear that my dear @Amidé!

If everything pertinent to the fair-isle sleeveless cardigans is not fixed yet, I would suggest you to contemplate a light-colored combination, using the natural / dark natural / beige palette of your maker.

I haven't yet seen anything like this, but if a bright color will be totally avoided in the color combination - especially red - it would be a very subtle and nice garment to be assorted with darker sport coats that we all have.

BTW, is their material going to be geelong (lambswool) or super geelong?


Best,

Dimitris

 

[Amidé]

I am glad to hear that my dear @Amidé!

If everything pertinent to the fair-isle sleeveless cardigans is not fixed yet, I would suggest you to contemplate a light-colored combination, using the natural / dark natural / beige palette of your maker.

I haven't yet seen anything like this, but if a bright color will be totally avoided in the color combination - especially red - it would be a very subtle and nice garment to be assorted with darker sport coats that we all have.

BTW, is their material going to be geelong (lambswool) or super geelong?


Best,

Dimitris

Well @Bespoke DJP, that’s another thing I hope will be sorted, we’ve changed a few of the colours in the standard colourways, to get some more muted Fair Isle options for the upcoming collection.
Apart from that we hope to receive short versions of our plain sleeveless cardigans. Both the Fair Isle and short plain ones will be in (geelong) lambswool, not in super geelong.
Fingers crossed all will be available as planned.

Best,
Amidé

 

[Bespoke DJP]

Well @Bespoke DJP, that’s another thing I hope will be sorted, we’ve changed a few of the colours in the standard colourways, to get some more muted Fair Isle options for the upcoming collection.
Apart from that we hope to receive short versions of our plain sleeveless cardigans. Both the Fair Isle and short plain ones will be in (geelong) lambswool, not in super geelong.
Fingers crossed all will be available as planned.

Best,
Amidé

Thank you again my dear Amidé; it seems that you've upgraded your game!

By "short versions", I understand that these will be destined to high-waisted trousers, but how short will they exactly be? Just for comparison purposes, my Super Geelong sleeveless waistcoat, size 40 has a length of 61.0cm (excluding the placket) and a total length of 64.0cm. Are they going to be even shorter?

At any rate, I am sure that they will be great!


Best,

Dimitris

 

[Amidé]

Thank you again my dear Amidé; it seems that you've upgraded your game!

By "short versions", I understand that these will be destined to high-waisted trousers, but how short will they exactly be? Just for comparison purposes, my Super Geelong sleeveless waistcoat, size 40 has a length of 61.0cm (excluding the placket) and a total length of 64.0cm. Are they going to be even shorter?

At any rate, I am sure that they will be great!


Best,

Dimitris

I don’t have the exact measurements here, but they will basically be shortened by about 3” (the hight of their waistband). So these will really be for high waisted trousers only.

 

[HotDilf]

Did you know that in the past, Scottish cashmere jumpers were "mothproofed"? Did they do this using chemicals we would consider to be harmful today?



Caption from these 1950s marketing campaign for Barrie reads: "Barrie knitwear is mothproofed for life";"It's mothproofed for life to give you lasting loveliness."