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Cars We Drive!

Discussion in 'Fine Living, Home, Design & Auto' started by Bert1568, Jul 18, 2006.

  1. clee1982

    clee1982 Senior member

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    Wait until we're all in the electric motor age where each wheel can all act completely independently, screw rear diff..., car will perform better for sure by then, though you would probably hate them even more (computer nanny state). Also they won't have more than 2 forward driven gear if it's electric...
     
  2. Piobaire

    Piobaire Senior member

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    So to whomever asked about what car to get a few posts above...this means the 2013 will be had at screaming deals very soon.
     
  3. Hannerhan

    Hannerhan Senior member

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    This is one of the things that makes the 911 so great, and a real outlier among long-time models. While it has been getting slightly bigger, Porsche got wise a couple of decades back and realized that if it gets heavier, you lose the driving dynamics over time.
     
  4. HRoi

    HRoi Senior member

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    But the current (991) 911 is a lot heavier (than the 993 at least), larger, and has moved from hydraulic to electronic steering - exactly the same gripes that foo wrote. The difference in driving feel between the 991 and the 993 are stark.

    But at least Porsche has the Cayman which feels a lot more like the 993. The 1M sadly is no more, and the M cars are taking one more step away from their traditional character by going to turbocharging.

    Sadly it seems like the only way to go back to those days is to buy one of the old cars or something ridiculous like the Atom
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  5. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    HRoi is right about the 911. While it is certainly more evolutionary than pretty much any other car out there, Porsche still gives way to the times and the market demands (of the ignorant). Hence, the death of its hydraulic steering and no more stick shift in the GT3. The latter almost makes less sense than the former. You don't buy the GT3 for all-out performance--for that, there is the Turbo, Turbo S, GT2, etc. The GT3 has been the most "pure" 911 available. So what the fuck is up with the dual clutch?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  6. UnFacconable

    UnFacconable Senior member

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    Is it too late to petition to change the name of this thread from "cars we drive" to "cars we have never driven (or possibly seen in person) but opine on nonetheless"? It seems we're only a few steps away from having the equivalent of a car thread based in car-free Portland or a thread on private planes populated mostly by Robb Report readers. This isn't meant to disparage the actual drivers on here who tell us about cars they've driven, if not owned. When people discuss cars they've never driven, they may as well just link to something written by someone who has actually seen the car and written an informed opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  7. mike1445

    mike1445 Senior member

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    worthwhille commentary, thanks for your input.
     
  8. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Can we not talk knowledgeably about professional baseball without being professional baseball players? Cars are not things one must individually experience to be able to speak of usefully. They are, under it all, machines. To a great extent (though not fully), we can understand them through their mechanicals, performance statistics, and yes, through the experiences of credible testers.
     
  9. aravenel

    aravenel Senior member

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    Oh hai, welcome to teh intarwebz.

    Seriously though, by this logic, this entire forum would not exist. One does not need to own something to form an opinion on it.
     
  10. UnFacconable

    UnFacconable Senior member

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    I'm not sure what baseball has to do with cars or why that reductionist stance wouldn't apply to everything else on this forum (bespoke goods included). A lot of this thread is helping people target cars for acquisition and there is plenty of help in here from knowledgeable gents like white/asian, hroi, jayjay, huntsman, greenfrog and idfnl among numerous others. A large portion of this thread also seems to be, for example, guys talking about how the 991 doesn't drive as nicely as the 993 from people who've driven neither. Now perhaps you've driven numerous BMW's and Porsche's over the years and you're not the right target for this opinion, but there are certainly people saying "x doesn't drive as nice as y" when they've driven neither x nor y and are simply making such statements based on what they've read or heard without referencing a source. Frequently people say Chris Harris says blah blah blah which to me is fine - they are referencing a presumably qualified opinion. Would even be fine to say, everyone who has test-driven those two prefers x, without saying any specific source. But to pass off third party opinions as your own is not the basis of a qualified opinion.

    And just to be clear, with respect to aesthetics, I completely agree that anyone is qualified to render an opinion, but with respect to qualitative experience of driving a car, it's inauthentic to pass off someone else's opinion as your own without acknowledging the fact.


    If someone were to ask me which tasted better - a shake shack burger or a minetta tavern burger - wouldn't it be idiotic for me to choose one and not at least say that I've eaten neither one?
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  11. Piobaire

    Piobaire Senior member

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    I think "white/asian, hroi, jayjay, huntsman, greenfrog" should all be feeling a little insulted at the moment.
     
  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I thought the comparison to baseball was crystal clear. The point is that cars are technical things, largely assessable on technical, mechanical grounds. If you don't understand the difference between hydraulic and electronic steering assist, for example, your firsthand experience with a car's steering feel is going to be less informed, even if it is firsthand. In contrast, someone well-versed on the difference may be able to tell you more about how two different cars will feel, even if he's never driven them. This argument now spans the whole forum. MC (excuse me, CM) is essentially a dead entity because it is now framed around the dialogue between buyers and sellers. The well-informed hobbyist has no place.

    That's not to say the intangible experience doesn't matter. But for that, we are far better off listening to professionals than waiting for a random guy on the internet to report on what it's like to drive his 911. After all, none of us have driven as many cars as those who are paid to drive them. What we can do, is educate ourselves.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  13. Hannerhan

    Hannerhan Senior member

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    I'm pretty sure that's wrong.
     
  14. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    It would be idiotic, indeed. But completely different. Again, cars are technical things, the experience of which is governed by physics. If you understand them mechanically, you'll find that you can often predict how professional drivers and reviewers will judge them.
     
  15. aravenel

    aravenel Senior member

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    Not if you know that one is a fast-food style burger (i.e. small, griddled patty) and the other is a pub style burger (i.e. large, grilled/broiled patty), and that you much prefer one to the other.

    Would it be ideal to have tasted both? Sure. But that doesn't mean one can't still form a reasonably informed opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  16. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Excellent point.
     
  17. UnFacconable

    UnFacconable Senior member

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    I think you meant to say electric steering assist since even hydraulic assist involves electronics nowadays. But that's a great topic to discuss. Electric assist is getting better and better and there are certainly cars that get it more right than the hydraulic assist other cars use. I chose my car in part because I preferred the road feel to the other cars I drove most of which were equipped with electric assist. As electric steering solutions become more refined, I've read that the gap has narrowed greatly. Plenty of new EPS cars have been praised for their steering dynamics, and understanding the difference (which to be honest based on the fact that you called it "electronic" I'm not sure you do) is not what matters. I'd rather talk to someone who has actually driven two cars to ask which one has better steering feel than to have someone who knows enough to be dangerous provide an underinformed opinion.

    The mechanical nature of cars does not remove the human element. I can't help but think that if we were talking about bespoke clothing you would be on the other side of the fence. There are technical aspects to jackets that can be debated without first-hand knowledge but that level of debate is pretty rudimentary.

    As for the burgers, substitute minetta tavern for five guys. Compare five guys to in n out . Compare McDonalds to Burger King. You can have it your way.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  18. Piobaire

    Piobaire Senior member

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    I think the simple fact of the matter is if aspirational cars were not discussed here it would mainly be me telling people an MB GL will fit their SUV/people hauler needs well, idfnl telling us of the snow prowess of his Audi with high perf tires, and GF talking about his BMWs. Given the kid is 24 I'm kinda jealous he's already had two decent BMWs. I was still using the bone shaker as my main means of transportation at that age.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  19. Find Finn

    Find Finn Senior member

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    I can guarantee you that 99% of g wagon buyers now a day, have no intention to drive it off road unless you call the sidewalk in LA or NY off road.

    All cars have become bigger, the Mk1 Golf is the size of the current VW Polo (size smaller than the golf) and so have the people who drive them, which is why HM now offer a XL Eames Lounge, also the tech and security features in the new cars today require room and weight than wasn't needed in the 80's etc.

    The 6's is a GT car and should be bigger is the whole point of a gran tourer 2+2 and boot for luggage.

    Tech can be a good and a bad thing, it can alienate you from the driving experience, but on the other hand it will save your ass and just because you can afford an M3, 911, Ferrari etc. is doesn't mean you have the ability to control it, there's a reason why the 993 Turbo and MB Gullwing are called "widow makers".

    I was looking at a 535d/550d/640d a while back and with a remap the 35d/40d has a better power to weight ratio, than 500 Abarth SS.




    The allroad is exactly that a raised A4/A6 with extra plastic and if I remember correctly tougher seats,

    If you want to go allroad go A6 4F.

    Polestar is a swedish tuner, who does remaps and runs Volvo's touring car team, so they know Volvo's.



    The current XC90 is from 03 with a facelift in 07, so it's like buying a very old GL.
     
  20. UnFacconable

    UnFacconable Senior member

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    I think the point is authenticity. You are always pretty clear when you're talking about something you've driven or not. There are certain facts that can be discussed - for instance the weight difference between a 991 and 993. We have people saying one is substantially heavier than the other which accounts for a substantial downgrade in driving quality when in fact the difference in weight is almost negligible according to 30 seconds of research (3064 lbs for a 1998 993 coupe vs 3042 for a 2013 991 coupe).

    I'm not advocating the removal of debate of mechanical or technical qualities, merely saying that people should be a bit more forthcoming with their backup with respect to qualitative judgment so that the readers can judge when someone is speaking out of turn.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013

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