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Dino944

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Everyone says that about everything. Or the corollary: "they don't make things like they used to" because they have since small appliance that was made in the 80s still lying around.
Yes, that is true on some degree. However, the other week I brought my wife's MB to the dealer up the road to change over to the winter wheels & tires. While killing time there I noticed they had a 1989 560SL on the showroom floor. So I checked it out, and that thing is solid! Its not a light weight car in the spirit of a sports car, but it has build quality unlike anything modern today, be it from MB, BMW, Audi, Porsche or any other brand I've seen in the last 20 years. The doors close with a vault like solid closure that one used to read about in magazines or experience years ago. The interior looked great, and the leather seats look nearly like new, while I've seen seats on 2-3 year old cars with half that mileage of that SL which showed far more wear or even cracks. The 560SL dated in many ways, but it was clearly built to last.
 

brokencycle

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Yes, that is true on some degree. However, the other week I brought my wife's MB to the dealer up the road to change over to the winter wheels & tires. While killing time there I noticed they had a 1989 560SL on the showroom floor. So I checked it out, and that thing is solid! Its not a light weight car in the spirit of a sports car, but it has build quality unlike anything modern today, be it from MB, BMW, Audi, Porsche or any other brand I've seen in the last 20 years. The doors close with a vault like solid closure that one used to read about in magazines or experience years ago. The interior looked great, and the leather seats look nearly like new, while I've seen seats on 2-3 year old cars with half that mileage of that SL which showed far more wear or even cracks. The 560SL dated in many ways, but it was clearly built to last.
Would you say the build quality of an SL was better in 1989 than it is today? It isn't fair to compare it to mainstream cars. An SL560 had a starting MSRP of $64k vs $10k for a Civic in 1989, so a 1989 car cost 3x what a a Civic costs today (starting at $21K) without adjusting for inflation.
 

HRoi

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I feel like vs the 90’s, Mercedes and Audi owners should be pretty happy about where their marques are today . Particularly Audi.Hyundai/Kia should be flipping ecstatic.

Porsche owners should be happy, but Porsche owners bitch about everything.

It’s also a great time to be a fan of American performance cars.

BMW and the Japanese sports car fans should be miserable. With the exception of Mazda. And maybe Subaru? I don’t really know what Subaru fans like but I think their cars are better/more diverse now which is good IMO.

if you care about none of these, and like SUV’s and other stuff, then disregard this post.
 

nootje

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Thicker leather and metal back then helps give that vault/quality feeling. Those have been sacrificed for crumple crash zones and weight savings for fuel efficiency.

Personally there’s a nostalgic feeling I have with older British cars. Those V12 engines and gentlemen’s club use of chrome, leather and wood still gets me. I grew up with Jaguar XJ or Daimlers and no modern car can give me that feeling of luxury.

Then I wake up and recall the shitty electronics and bankrupting gas mileage.

Even though their electronics now suck in a different way. At least their cars aren’t at risk anymore of shutting down completely when hitting the kickdown while cruise control is on (happened to my stepdad), or losing all lighting during driving (again, true story), or drain the battery in four days due to a weird alarm system (fun stuff when coming back on a short holiday redeye flight).

I’m pretty sure Jaguar enthousiasts don’t miss the 80s and 90s, or 00s. The 10s have been pretty good to them for Jaguar standards, maybe the 20s will be the decade.
 

brokencycle

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I feel like vs the 90’s, Mercedes and Audi owners should be pretty happy about where their marques are today . Particularly Audi.Hyundai/Kia should be flipping ecstatic.

Porsche owners should be happy, but Porsche owners bitch about everything.

It’s also a great time to be a fan of American performance cars.

BMW and the Japanese sports car fans should be miserable. With the exception of Mazda. And maybe Subaru? I don’t really know what Subaru fans like but I think their cars are better/more diverse now which is good IMO.

if you care about none of these, and like SUV’s and other stuff, then disregard this post.
I can see why Japanese sports car fans would be unhappy -- they have basically exited the space. BMW though has much better build quality, quality control, and on paper performance. I understand that a true car guy would say the paper numbers don't matter much, but a 1992 BMW M3 did 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, and a 2020 BMW 330i xDrive does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds, and a M4 is 3.8 seconds.

Again, I understand there is a nuanced driving dynamics, performance is more than straight line acceleration, etc, but my original point was a general statement about cars -- they've gotten better. They last longer, are more reliable, safer, and higher performance.
 

VaderDave

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Yes, that is true on some degree. However, the other week I brought my wife's MB to the dealer up the road to change over to the winter wheels & tires. While killing time there I noticed they had a 1989 560SL on the showroom floor. So I checked it out, and that thing is solid! Its not a light weight car in the spirit of a sports car, but it has build quality unlike anything modern today, be it from MB, BMW, Audi, Porsche or any other brand I've seen in the last 20 years. The doors close with a vault like solid closure that one used to read about in magazines or experience years ago. The interior looked great, and the leather seats look nearly like new, while I've seen seats on 2-3 year old cars with half that mileage of that SL which showed far more wear or even cracks. The 560SL dated in many ways, but it was clearly built to last.
I had that exact year/model back in the mid-late 90s before I got dat ZHP in 2004. It was a wonderful car and really, really well built. I probably would have kept it forever but I had two small kids and got tired of driving around by myself, so the ZHP was a good replacement.
 

HRoi

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I can see why Japanese sports car fans would be unhappy -- they have basically exited the space. BMW though has much better build quality, quality control, and on paper performance. I understand that a true car guy would say the paper numbers don't matter much, but a 1992 BMW M3 did 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, and a 2020 BMW 330i xDrive does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds, and a M4 is 3.8 seconds.

Again, I understand there is a nuanced driving dynamics, performance is more than straight line acceleration, etc, but my original point was a general statement about cars -- they've gotten better. They last longer, are more reliable, safer, and higher performance.
We’re in general agreement. I just took your broaching of the topic as an opening to make sweeping generalizations about the car market :laugh:
 

HRoi

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Btw fans of 90’s Mercedes are the luckiest ones of us, because you can still buy a factory-new version of a 90’s MB....our beloved G Wagen
 

nootje

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Btw fans of 90’s Mercedes are the luckiest ones of us, because you can still buy a factory-new version of a 90’s MB....our beloved G Wagen
80s.
 

Dino944

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Would you say the build quality of an SL was better in 1989 than it is today? It isn't fair to compare it to mainstream cars. An SL560 had a starting MSRP of $64k vs $10k for a Civic in 1989, so a 1989 car cost 3x what a a Civic costs today (starting at $21K) without adjusting for inflation.
If you look at my post I said, "It has build quality unlike anything modern today, be it from MB, BMW, Audi, Porsche or any other brand I've seen in the last 20 years." Without a doubt the build quality of that 1989 MB 560SL is far superior to anything made by MB or other German luxury car companies today.

Thicker leather and metal back then helps give that vault/quality feeling. Those have been sacrificed for crumple crash zones and weight savings for fuel efficiency.

Personally there’s a nostalgic feeling I have with older British cars. Those V12 engines and gentlemen’s club use of chrome, leather and wood still gets me. I grew up with Jaguar XJ or Daimlers and no modern car can give me that feeling of luxury.

Then I wake up and recall the shitty electronics and bankrupting gas mileage.

Even though their electronics now suck in a different way. At least their cars aren’t at risk anymore of shutting down completely when hitting the kickdown while cruise control is on (happened to my stepdad), or losing all lighting during driving (again, true story), or drain the battery in four days due to a weird alarm system (fun stuff when coming back on a short holiday redeye flight).

I’m pretty sure Jaguar enthousiasts don’t miss the 80s and 90s, or 00s. The 10s have been pretty good to them for Jaguar standards, maybe the 20s will be the decade.
Agree about the thicker, higher quality leather for the interior. There were also more metal parts used rather than plastic. As for crumple zones, MB was always considered one of the safest cars and was building crumple zones into their cars long before the 1980s. Yes, I am sure some quality was sacrificed to reduce weight and to try to help with fuel efficiency.

Never owned a Jaguar and neither did my parents. They mostly owned MBs, BMWs, and Porsches back in the day. Our family dentist owned an XK150 from new, and one of my dad's friends owned a Series III XJ6 and then an XJS. They both told my father unless you have great mechanical skills, don't buy one. The XJ6/XJS owner had a hoist in his garage to remove the engine and he did a lot of his own maintenance. Working on his Jag was his entertainment, but he said, "If you are used to German quality and reliability, don't buy a British car. A family friend who bought an E-type when they were new had it burst into flames. Lucas also jokingly referred to as the "Prince of Darkness" provided horrible electrical systems for most British cars. Peter Egan, famous R&T, writer from years ago, once wrote about how when he went to honk the horn on an E-Type and the windshield wipers turn on instead! Back then Jaguar made beautiful cars, but you didn't buy one because of reliability.

Yes, the old 80's alarms systems were often a disaster. It's one of the first things a lot of people remove when buying a vintage car from that period.

Thanks for sharing your family Jaguar experiences. I found them amusing to read, but I'm sure they would have driven me crazy if I actually experienced it. Cheers!
 

flipstah

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And then Grosjean with the most horrific fiery crash I’ve ever witnessed. Happy and impressed that he escaped serious injury despite being trapped in a burning wreck. At the same time, what the fuck was he doing when he caused the crash??

Mclaren P4 and P5 and no points for Rscing Point means they’re in decent shape for 3rd in Constructors
that halo saved him for sure

ooof so my clunky suspension is a complete magnetic ride overhaul on the S3; 9hr job so parts and labour is $5k. Have two years left on the finance so on the fence of fixing it or trading it in for something haha. Time to brows AutoTrader as always XD
 

Texasmade

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And then Grosjean with the most horrific fiery crash I’ve ever witnessed. Happy and impressed that he escaped serious injury despite being trapped in a burning wreck. At the same time, what the fuck was he doing when he caused the crash??

Mclaren P4 and P5 and no points for Rscing Point means they’re in decent shape for 3rd in Constructors
You know there's an F1 thread to post in right?
 

HRoi

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I do think that the pre-DaimlerChrysler Mercedes just stood on this principle that they would not be outbuilt by anyone. It didn’t matter how expensive the other car was.

i also have a Jaguar e-type story! When I went to b-school we were preparing to do spring break at the Outer Banks, and my buddy convinced me to drive him to his parents’ house to pick up his red e-type convertible (which I didn’t realize he had) and convoy with him to NC. When we got to his parents’ home he loaded my trunk up with tools and parts, which was of course a portent.

on the way we had a balky starter, performed a brake job on the side of the road, and some kind of red warning light that he cheerfully ignored. When we finally got there he immediately ditched me for the first girl who wanted a ride in the gorgeous hot red car. Leaving me with my Civic.

I would be more upset with him if I didn’t realize that for a 25-year old, the whole damn point of that car and all the trouble it brings, was exactly that.
 

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