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brokencycle

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I think this is overly reductive on several fronts.

Yes, Porsche is known for daily-drivable sports cars. However, they are still loud compared to non-sports cars—say, a family sedan or an SUV.

Further, the air-cooled cars make all sorts of raspy, raucous noises that are muted in the water-cooled ones. Which is “louder”? Which is more livable day to day? Debatable.

Also, it depends on exactly which air-cooled Porsche you’re talking about. A 2.7 RS is pretty damned loud! And it is much less usable as a daily driver than a modern Porsche GT car. Generally, the motorsport models—regardless of era—are louder and less filtered.

Finally, don’t mistake my euphemistic tone with literally saying loud is better for the sake of being loud. Obviously, it’s the mechanical quality of the sound that matters. Volume amplifies the good and bad. On that note, I disagree that vintage necessarily sounds better than modern. No vintage, air-cooled engine spins to 9,000 rpm.

Regardless of era, the turbo cars don’t sound particularly interesting.
So higher redlines always have a better sound?
 

TheFoo

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So higher redlines always have a better sound?
Is that what I said?
Okay, let me take a shot at responding to you in earnest and see where this goes.

No, having a higher redline itself does not necessarily make one engine sound better than another. However, the exotic, sporty sound that people associate with European sports cars is due to the fact they are very high-strung and typically rev to much higher RPMs than the traditional American V-8 (which sounds great for different reasons).

The Porsche flat-6 is a prime example of a high-strung European performance engine. All else equal, the higher the RPMs, the Porschier the sound. Porsche enthusiasts (really, European performance car enthusiasts in general) prize higher revving engines partially for this reason. The other reasons are functional, but we are talking about sound here.

One of the reasons that turbo engines are maligned for their sound is because they don’t rev as high as a naturally-aspirated engine.
 
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brokencycle

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Okay, let me take a shot at responding to you in earnest and see where this goes.

No, having a higher redline itself does not necessarily make one engine sound better than another. However, the exotic, sporty sound that people associate with European sports cars is due to the fact they are very high-strung and typically rev to much higher RPMs than the traditional American V-8 (which sounds great for different reasons).

The Porsche flat-6 is a prime example of a high-strung European performance engine. All else equal, the higher the RPMs, the Porschier the sound. Porsche enthusiasts (really, European performance car enthusiasts in general) prize higher revving engines partially for this reason. The other reasons are functional, but we are talking about sound here.

One of the reasons that turbo engines are maligned for their sound is because they cannot rev as high as a naturally-aspirated engine.
So all things being equal, would your car sound better if the redline was 12k? Does a LaFerrari with a redline at 9250 sound better or a 1980 Honda S800 at 10,000? Will the Gordon Murray T50 be even better at 12.5K?

If not, why?
 

bawlin

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I think there’s a guy in this thread who has a modified aircooled and a modified GT car parked side-by-side in his parkade. Maybe he can chime in.
 

brokencycle

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I think there’s a guy in this thread who has a modified aircooled and a modified GT car parked side-by-side in his parkade. Maybe he can chime in.
No, we're looking for the objective right answer -- not that guy's opinion.
 

OtterMeanGreen

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So all things being equal, would your car sound better if the redline was 12k? Does a LaFerrari with a redline at 9250 sound better or a 1980 Honda S800 at 10,000? Will the Gordon Murray T50 be even better at 12.5K?

If not, why?
It might not be 10K but mine revs to just past 8000. At 153K on the clock it still revs all the way up on the original clutch & trans, no sign of slippage yet. Knock on wood.

71914C1A-8459-4CE2-AC28-5F109A492FED.jpeg
 

Piobaire

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I have yet to red line my mighty beast as I'm waiting to get some more miles on it first.
 

Dino944

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I think this is overly reductive on several fronts.

Yes, Porsche is known for daily-drivable sports cars. However, they are still loud compared to non-sports cars—say, a family sedan or an SUV.

Further, the air-cooled cars make all sorts of raspy, raucous noises that are muted in the water-cooled ones. Which is “louder”? Which is more livable day to day? Debatable.

Also, it depends on exactly which air-cooled Porsche you’re talking about. A 2.7 RS is pretty damned loud! And it is much less usable as a daily driver than a modern Porsche GT car. Generally, the motorsport models—regardless of era—are louder and less filtered.

Finally, don’t mistake my euphemistic tone with literally saying loud is better for the sake of being loud. Obviously, it’s the mechanical quality of the sound that matters. Volume amplifies the good and bad. On that note, I disagree that vintage necessarily sounds better than modern. No vintage, air-cooled engine spins to 9,000 rpm.

Regardless of era, the turbo cars don’t sound particularly interesting.
Yes, my post is reductive, yours of course is, "The Peak Post." :wink:

My post specifically says, "Porsches being very loud, is something of the last 10-15 years. If you drive an air cooled 911 or 930, or a 928 or 944 Turbo S, none of those were particularly loud cars." Your discussion of water cooled cars is basically later cars or as I mentioned those in the last 10-15 years when people have wanted very loud cars.

I specifically said, air cooled 911s, 930s, 928s, 944 Turbo S...so it is clear I'm talking about production cars of the late 70's and into the 1990s, not a limited production 2.7 RS that only a handful of collectors have. I'm mean hell, why not use a 917 as your example, since at least one person had one converted into a road car? So you are going way beyond the scope of what was said to try and make your case.

Raucous raspy noises from an air cooled 911?...not really, at least not a stock one. Have you ever driven a stock air cooled 911? They have a distinctive whine when wound up, but raspy raucous sounds...well that sounds more like you are describing some sort of modern car.

It's always the mechanical quality that matters....loud for the sake of being the loudest car is meaningless. I love the sound of my 328, even if it isn't the loudest car produced. That being said, I never said, that vintage sound better than modern...for me it always depends on the car. I mostly discussed that Porsches back in the day were NOT known for being especially loud, they were known for being sports cars that one could be daily drive.

Not a long video, but below is what an 80's G body 911 without mods sounds like.

 

OtterMeanGreen

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Yes, my post is reductive, yours of course is, "The Peak Post." :wink:

My post specifically says, "Porsches being very loud, is something of the last 10-15 years. If you drive an air cooled 911 or 930, or a 928 or 944 Turbo S, none of those were particularly loud cars." Your discussion of water cooled cars is basically later cars or as I mentioned those in the last 10-15 years when people have wanted very loud cars.

I specifically said, air cooled 911s, 930s, 928s, 944 Turbo S...so it is clear I'm talking about production cars of the late 70's and into the 1990s, not a limited production 2.7 RS that only a handful of collectors have. I'm mean hell, why not use a 917 as your example, since at least one person had one converted into a road car? So you are going way beyond the scope of what was said to try and make your case.

Raucous raspy noises from an air cooled 911?...not really, at least not a stock one. Have you ever driven a stock air cooled 911? They have a distinctive whine when wound up, but raspy raucous sounds...well that sounds more like you are describing some sort of modern car.

It's always the mechanical quality that matters....loud for the sake of being the loudest car is meaningless. I love the sound of my 328, even if it isn't the loudest car produced. That being said, I never said, that vintage sound better than modern...for me it always depends on the car. I mostly discussed that Porsches back in the day were NOT known for being especially loud, they were known for being sports cars that one could be daily drive.

Not a long video, but below is what an 80's G body 911 without mods sounds like.

The sound of that G Body 911 was glorious, it brought me instantly to the music the 246 Dino made. Raw perfection without any gimmicks

 

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