• Hi, I'm the owner and main administrator of Styleforum. If you find the forum useful and fun, please help support it by buying through the posted links on the forum. Our main, very popular sales thread, where the latest and best sales are listed, are posted, and where you will find more and more great sales posted as Black Friday approacheds, HERE

    Purchases made through some of our links earns a commission for the forum and allows us to do the work of maintaining and improving it. Finally, thanks for being a part of this community. We realize that there are many choices today on the internet, and we have all of you to thank for making Styleforum the foremost destination for discussions of menswear.
  • STYLE. COMMUNITY. GREAT CLOTHING.

    Bored of counting likes on social networks? At Styleforum, you’ll find rousing discussions that go beyond strings of emojis.

    Click Here to join Styleforum's thousands of style enthusiasts today!

Jmm722

Distinguished Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
3,789
Reaction score
5,143
Comments:

M2 - i mentioned that. Probably the sports car I would get if I wanted to spend the least money. But it’s not sub $60k. I actually drew my arbitrarily line at 60k specifically because of the M2.
I know where you can get a gently used one for well under $60k...
 

Texasmade

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
10,882
Reaction score
9,174
Comments:

M2 - i mentioned that. Probably the sports car I would get if I wanted to spend the least money. But it’s not sub $60k. I actually drew my arbitrarily line at 60k specifically because of the M2.

base 718’s - four cylinder. Yuck yuck yuck. Kills it for me but ymmv. That’s why I said you need at least the GTS (4.0 n/a flat6)

pony cars - I guess to me they’re still muscle cars, which is not meant to be an insult. So if you consider them sports cars and would cross shop them against a Japanese sports car then they become the top competitor

Supra - yes, it’s disappointing.

FRS/BRZ/AE86 - ridiculously underpowered. Could be great with the much clamored-for turbo upgrade.

Miata - can’t really find anything to argue against the Miata. Maybe just that there’s room for a more expensive, somewhat larger, much more powerful sports car as a step above it.

i still think there’s a great market for a great non-luxury Japanese sports car. Not everyone will be looking at Ford or GM.
718 GTS now comes in a 4.0 6 cylinder engine.
 

Dino944

Distinguished Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2011
Messages
5,869
Reaction score
4,744
I disagree that the under $60K market is for the taking. Quite the contrary! First of all, the Mustang and Camaro are no longer stupid muscle cars. They have been legitimate sports cars for a couple of generations and are some of the only left with both naturally aspirated engines and manual transmissions. People who would buy an M3 back when they were good or perhaps a used Porsche are now looking at and buying these cars. The way they are written about and perceived overseas speaks volumes.

Then there is the M2! And base Boxsters and Caymans!

These mid-tier Japanese sports cars made a lot more sense when Japanese car makers were at the top of their game and everyone else was playing catch-up, selling overpriced cars that offered little or no performance advantage and much worse reliability. That was last true more than 20 years ago.

Other than the 60's Shelby Mustangs, meh... I haven't driven one in a while, but last time I did, I wasn't impressed. I also don't find them attractive. To me a sports car has to be good looking. I like the looks of the Camaro a lot more. I had one as a rental car for about 2 weeks. Other than the big V8 engine the rest of the car was unimpressive. I also don't think it has moved from muscle car to sports car at all. Felt massive, heavy, not agile, mediocre ergonomics, cheap looking interior, and the side windows are so high up on the door and so short your side outward vision is terrible. They way they are perceived overseas is quite different than here (particularly because most people overseas don't buy anything other than a small 4 cylinder) . As for the perception here, I stopped by the office to pick something up...even the secretaries laughed at it and thought it was a junky, flashy car. The guys were even more brutal in terms of their perception of the car...and they drive average cars and SUVs.
 

clee1982

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
19,761
Reaction score
6,216
what's disappoint about Supra, the price? or it's re badge BMW but called Supra? I mean if that cars was "without heritage" would it still be disappointing?
 

DubbyThaFerrgamoCZAR

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2019
Messages
318
Reaction score
345
This is my favorite car sub reddit by the way



Screenshot_2020-09-17-21-36-01-1.png
 

HRoi

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Dec 28, 2008
Messages
21,359
Reaction score
10,405
what's disappoint about Supra, the price? or it's re badge BMW but called Supra? I mean if that cars was "without heritage" would it still be disappointing?
For me it’s the fact that you’re replacing a legend that was built during the time when Toyota was still known for swinging for the fences. You tease it for something like 12 years, and your final offering is something along the level of a middle trim Z4. So yeah, i guess much of my disappointment is related to heritage.

If it was not called a Supra, and you’re ok with a somewhat above average small coupe, then i guess it’s not as disappointing. But again, i still feel Toyota hasn’t knocked anything out of the park. Leaving the door open for Nissan (who i don’t expect to deliver but please I’d love them to prove me wrong)
 

TheFoo

THE FOO
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
23,129
Reaction score
4,396
The new Supra is almost 400hp (2nd year car), it’s an auto, but I wouldn’t call it lame.
It is not a matter of horsepower. It’s a matter of: (1) lacking character/uniqueness/“heritage”, (2) being hideous, and (3) not being particularly standout in performance.

When self-driving electric car pods can make a gazillion horsepower and get to 60 in two seconds, it’s become even more important for sports cars to have character—in looks, feel, engineering, etc. Then Toyota brings us a re-badged, (somehow) uglier BMW and calls it a Supra. Even if you can get past that, the car also fails to achieve the foremost virtue of its predecessor: outperform much more expensive, less reliable cars. Today’s Supra is in-line with similarly-priced peers, at best.

Also, did I forget to mention it’s ugly as fuck?
 

clee1982

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
19,761
Reaction score
6,216
My point would be if we say M2 Comp is “good” then what’s so wrong about Supra (heritage aside, just check on performance and dynamic especially now it’s allow to have the up rated B58)? Just missing manual?
 

TheFoo

THE FOO
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
23,129
Reaction score
4,396
Other than the 60's Shelby Mustangs, meh... I haven't driven one in a while, but last time I did, I wasn't impressed. I also don't find them attractive. To me a sports car has to be good looking. I like the looks of the Camaro a lot more. I had one as a rental car for about 2 weeks. Other than the big V8 engine the rest of the car was unimpressive. I also don't think it has moved from muscle car to sports car at all. Felt massive, heavy, not agile, mediocre ergonomics, cheap looking interior, and the side windows are so high up on the door and so short your side outward vision is terrible. They way they are perceived overseas is quite different than here (particularly because most people overseas don't buy anything other than a small 4 cylinder) . As for the perception here, I stopped by the office to pick something up...even the secretaries laughed at it and thought it was a junky, flashy car. The guys were even more brutal in terms of their perception of the car...and they drive average cars and SUVs.
I think this is just an outdated opinion. The current-gen Camaro and Mustang are great sports cars. Not only are they relative bargains, but they offer unique, characterful driving experiences regardless of price. Drive a GT350 and than see if you think it’s just a meat-headed muscle car.

Does it matter what your office colleagues think when they don’t particularly know much about cars? I’m talking about what these cars are, not what random people think of them. Not sure why whether your secretary is impressed has anything to do with whether a sports car delivers on driving experience and performance.

If going by perception, than shouldn’t knowledgeable opinions matter more? Car journalists—both U.S. and European—have been heaping praise on the Mustang and Camaro for years as excellent sports cars, and not just “for the money”. Spend time on any of the Porsche or BMW enthusiast forums and you’ll find a lot of deep respect for the GT350 in particular. It has eaten into M2/M4 sales and people consider it as an option when looking at lower priced Porsches. Hell, it was on my list, too! Unlike BMW, Chevy and Ford are still doing right by enthusiasts.

Not worth debating style, as sports cars can be ugly too. But I happen to think both are pretty attractive, particularly the Mustang. Interiors are cheap feeling, sure, but what does that have to do with how sporty they are?

Sounds like you have a ton of enthusiast friends. Ask one of them if you can test out their GT350. Maybe that will change your view.
 

TheFoo

THE FOO
Dubiously Honored
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
23,129
Reaction score
4,396
My point would be if we say M2 Comp is “good” then what’s so wrong about Supra (heritage aside, just check on performance and dynamic especially now it’s allow to have the up rated B58)? Just missing manual?
In all candor, the M2 is also somewhat meh (though not full-on meh like the Supra). I think people like it as much as they do because it is the most fun, most “pure”, least ugly BMW left—the closest thing to a modern E46 M3. If it were badged a Hyundai? It would be an interesting footnote but nobody would buy it. My guess, at least. It’s great because it does the BMW thing better than any other living BMW, not because it is particularly exceptional outside that context.

Okay maybe the above is a little harsh.

The M2 does legitimately do something different versus the Supra. Like previous small M cars, it isn’t a pure sports car. It also has the versatility of having a back seat and more usable interior space. A guy with a wife and/or small children can conceivably buy one as his daily. The Supra, on the other hand, would have to be his weekend fun car. When you don’t have to account for practicality at all, the field opens up quite a bit. Just slightly more money gets you into a decently optioned Cayman, for example.
 

Thrift Vader

Forum Mechanic
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Messages
11,738
Reaction score
10,926
what's disappoint about Supra, the price? or it's re badge BMW but called Supra? I mean if that cars was "without heritage" would it still be disappointing?
Because if they released that as a new Z4?
People would love it.

I'm flummoxed that Toyota couldn't rapidly throw some stuff together and say "Here's a Toyota, have fun with it"
And we all would want one.

Seems like a shit business plan to me, were they talking with Nissan?

Supposing they kept the tooling/designs. They could just release an updated Soarer/SC300. that would make me very happy.

Or. . . . wait for it.

A fully weight reduced, spartan interior LC500 chassis, with a twin turbo V6.

Naw, I got ideas, that's why I don't work in the Car industry.
 
Last edited:

clee1982

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
19,761
Reaction score
6,216
sounds like a good business plan to me, what inline 6 does Toyota has in its current line up that satisfy modern regulation (i.e. you can't just tweak 2JZ and throw into a car)
 

Thrift Vader

Forum Mechanic
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Messages
11,738
Reaction score
10,926
sounds like a good business plan to me, what inline 6 does Toyota has in its current line up that satisfy modern regulation (i.e. you can't just tweak 2JZ and throw into a car)
The best engine Toyota has right now is the GR V6. It could be revised to be the flagship engine. Send them to Yamaha.
They'd deliver an eye watering Toyota turbo V6.
 

clee1982

Stylish Dinosaur
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
19,761
Reaction score
6,216
well, then we're going to b*tch about it not being inline 6 and call it lame
 

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by

Featured Sponsor

Most Interesting Fashion Collaboration of 2020

  • JW Anderson x Uniqlo

  • Nigo x Virgil Abloh

  • Converse x Midnight Studios

  • Rick Owens x Champion

  • Barbour x Engineered Garments

  • Adidas x Bed JW Ford

  • Jordan Brand x Dior

  • Billie Eilish x Takashi Murakami

  • Lego x Levi's


Results are only viewable after voting.

Related Threads

Forum statistics

Threads
448,636
Messages
9,709,395
Members
202,680
Latest member
kgbhugdqwmko
Top