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Dino944

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I don't know I didn't find anything offensive about Foo's GT3 in terms of it being a daily commuter car. I think I am taller than that car is designed for, but we were in it for a few hours and I still was fine. I'd personally have no issues with that for a daily commute. If anything it would make it better, imo.
You were a passenger for a few hours. Actually, drive one yourself daily for a few months, then you will have a true perspective.
 

clee1982

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From bad backs to cataracts...Cadillac will find a way to thrive.

The only two American car I would have bought were Vette and more driver focused Cadillac, though now they seem to kill that guess it’s back to Vette (unless I have 5 kids like some of my colleague in which case Escalade would do...)
 

jbarwick

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There is something about the vintage cars with sweeping fenders that just looks fantastic. I stand by my love of the Jaguar XK120 and XK150. Has anyone ever driven one of those? I'd hate for it to drive like shit and my love for it to fade.

 

Texasmade

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You were a passenger for a few hours. Actually, drive one yourself daily for a few months, then you will have a true perspective.
Or have an obnoxious neighbor wake you up all the time because their car is loud as shit. I remember when I was in HS, my neighbor would always ride his motorcycle on the weekends at like 7am.
 

clee1982

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Even MPPSK is pretty loud... how loud are the AMG in cold start?
 

Dino944

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There is something about the vintage cars with sweeping fenders that just looks fantastic. I stand by my love of the Jaguar XK120 and XK150. Has anyone ever driven one of those? I'd hate for it to drive like shit and my love for it to fade.

My dentist had an XK140 coupe. He bought it new and had it for about 40 years. I used to love to see it as a kid. He sold it before he retired. It was far from a show car, and he put over 200,000 miles on it. Not all were trouble free, every now and then I would see it on the side of the highway. Still, even when he was older he sometimes drove it to work and enjoyed cruising in it when the weather was nice. By the early 90's he bought a basic Toyota as a daily driver and for use in the winter.

Some people say you should never meet your "Heroes" be it a car or a person. They often don't live up to one's expectations. There was even an episode of the original Top Gear where James May finally got to drive a Lamborghini Countach and he said how terrible it was to drive. Vintage cars, especially ones from the 1950s or 60s drive nothing like modern cars.

Try to go to some local British car shows or Jaguar Club car shows. Talk to some actual owners. Get their impressions. Still the only way to know if it lives up to your image of it, or if a vintage car would be right for you, is to drive one.
 

TheFoo

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Or have an obnoxious neighbor wake you up all the time because their car is loud as shit. I remember when I was in HS, my neighbor would always ride his motorcycle on the weekends at like 7am.
How close do you live to your neighbors that this is a problem? I guess I’d invest in more space before buying loud expensive cars.
 

Piobaire

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So how far set back from the street would a house need to be in order not to hear an obnoxiously loud car or motorcycle go by? A thousand feet? Half a mile? I guess it's correct to scorn paupers that cannot afford grand estates in the several million plus category.
 

Texasmade

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How close do you live to your neighbors that this is a problem? I guess I’d invest in more space before buying loud expensive cars.
In most Houston suburbs, it’s pretty common for the house to be about 15 yards away from the street. Most people don’t live in large estates with acres of land between them and their neighbors or the street.
 

TheFoo

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guess everyone's tolerance is different, I know my wife would find M5 Competition too hard for sure. Caddlic didn't just magically find how to tune cars, they just decide they have to sell to a different audience as their existing audience is dying, like literally.

Though appearently that doesn't sell anyway, Caddy is killing nearly all of its sedan model...
This is not characterizing things correctly. It took Cadillac many years to get near parity with the Germans in ride/handling. They bought older BMWs and tore them apart to try and figure out the secret sauce. They started developing on the Nurburgring and chasing lap times. They iterated on new chassis platforms and suspension systems over multiple generations.

They had to learn how to do it, not just decide to do it. Even if BMW itself decided today it wanted to start making cars as good as they used to, it would likely take more than one model generation to get there.

All very well and good, and broadly true. But you can see how the actual laptimes don’t matter in those use cases, yeah?
No, I’m not suggesting to buy a car simply because of a lap time—nor have I ever suggested anything of the sort. Frankly, I think it would take a heightened and likely purposeful obtuseness to read me that way.

Rather, my point has been that better ‘Ring times do correlate strongly with better driving dynamics. Take a given car, develop and tune it to go faster around the Nurburgring, and chances are likely it has also become a more capable, more poised, more fun road car. This is evident across the entire car industry, as we’ve discussed above.

If it weren’t me stating the obvious about the benefits and influence of Nurburgring development, I don’t think this would have been such a controversy.

You are right, aero is just one factor. Another is transmission - it's quite clear that manual transmissions produce slower lap times. I don't think we've ever seen a posted lap time for a manual 991.2 GT3 but it is assuredly meaningfully slower than the official GT3 time. You obviously don't think automatics or DCTs provide a superior driving experience on the road. I think if you look at the increase in 'ring performance in the last few decades it predominantly boils down to three things: (1. horsepower, 2. tires, 3. aero). Further, as simulations have shown (and I've pointed out before), there are other factors which might not produce more on-road enjoyment for you like torque-vectoring all wheel drive.



You are moving the goal posts here. You have certainly at times focused on road performance but you also conflate street driving more generally with 'ring performance. In your quote below, you seem to be describing a Miata. Suspension tuning on the 'ring is very difference from performance maximizing, and the things manufacturers do to maximize performance is more about bragging rights than improving street enjoyment.
1. Not moving goal posts—clarifying what was previously unclear to certain people.

2. Suspension and chassis tuning are just as critical as aero, tire technology, or power to improving Nurburgring times. See the M4 GTS as a case study. Tons of power, lots of extreme aero enhancements, and sticky track tires, but a chassis and suspension unable to put power down effectively. Result? Underwhelming lap time.

I get the use of the Nurburgring in the development of cars. Yes, it helps make cars better. Its just the lap time isn't the end all be all for most people in choosing a car, especially not for a daily driver. I could see that if one was tracking a car, but in real life driving it doesn't matter that much whether the one car is a few tenths of a second quicker than another. A driver's skills often matter more.

As for chips on shoulders, nope. Wish you all the best. I just think your perspective is different because you don't daily drive your car. Occasionally encountering imperfect roads, and occasionally being stuck in stop and go traffic isn't the same thing as dealing with it on a daily basis.
Again, not sure why the fixation on lap times as a bragging right in and of itself when I think by now we’ve all agreed they correlate with developing better dynamics.

You were a passenger for a few hours. Actually, drive one yourself daily for a few months, then you will have a true perspective.
Didn’t realize you were the adjudicator of true perspective here.
 
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TheFoo

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So how far set back from the street would a house need to be in order not to hear an obnoxiously loud car or motorcycle go by? A thousand feet? Half a mile? I guess it's correct to scorn paupers that cannot afford grand estates in the several million plus category.
Lol of course you would take it this way.

It should go without say that loud expensive sports cars are, amongst other things, expensive. If a $200K+ toy car works for you financially, living on a big enough piece of land to afford some modicum of privacy ought to also be an option (assuming you’re out in the ‘burbs). If you live so close to your neighbors that starting your car in the morning wakes them up, you are probably not the target consumer for such things.

Of course, I forgot this is Styleforum, where it is elitist to point out that it takes lots of money to buy things that cost lots of money.

In most Houston suburbs, it’s pretty common for the house to be about 15 yards away from the street. Most people don’t live in large estates with acres of land between them and their neighbors or the street.
Most people aren’t buying loud expensive sports cars either.
 

HRoi

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I said I was going to let the difference of opinion rest, but now I object to being called deliberately obtuse. This is the post I quoted, which I just re-read and in good faith cannot see how I could have misinterpreted it.:
As discussed ad nauseum, ‘Ring times are good proxies for all-around performance and driving dynamics over varied road conditions. Manufacturers test there not just for record times but to develop and refine their cars.
Underlining is mine. I disagree that Ring times are a good proxy for all around performance and driving dynamics over varied road conditions. Like i said, remove any of these underlined phrases and I agree with you 100%. I do understand that you are not claiming that these times are the be-all-end-all. I’m making a specific point about how the Ring can also fuck up cars for their buyers.

I’m not copping to being obtuse, but i’ll admit to being pedantic - for the specific reason above. Again, I think overly focusing on Ring testing is making cars worse.

Also, this is all Unfacconable’s fault for bringing up Ring lap times on two Mercedes luxury yachts :laugh:
 
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Piobaire

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LOL, how else could such a comment be taken?
 

Rumpelstiltskin

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Corvette C8 pricing guide now available
Forwarded this to my father and let him know that a $65k replacement for his C6 vert is not realistic. According to the chart he will probably end up going with a 2LT, Z51 package, magnetic ride and gps hydraulic lift plus the extra cost for the convertible. About $80k I reckon
 

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