Cars We Drive!

[Texasmade]

Hroi drove a GT3 as his daily car and said he had no issues. I don't find Foo's exhaust to be overly loud at all (but I am already deaf so there's that).

But you're not using the car as a DD. My friend's brother in law has a 991.2 GT3 and he rarely drives it. The car is mainly weekend fun because of the stiffness and noise. Neighbors complained that his car was too loud and he didn't want to wake everyone up early in the morning driving his car. His DD is a truck.

 

[Dino944]

Hroi drove a GT3 as his daily car and said he had no issues. I don't find Foo's exhaust to be overly loud at all (but I am already deaf so there's that).

Yes, and I believe Hroi lives in Florida where they probably have far better roads than we do up north and so he might not find the car as punishing. My friends with GT3s don't want to drive them daily in New England, based on the stiff suspensions, noise and lack of amenities. If Foo could only have one car, and he HAD to daily drive it, I would imagine a GT3 would grow tiresome quite quickly. You rode is his car for what, a few hours tops...so for you it was exciting and novelty. Its an awesome car for the right situations or events...not a great daily.

 

[HRoi]

Hroi drove a GT3 as his daily car and said he had no issues. I don't find Foo's exhaust to be overly loud at all (but I am already deaf so there's that).

I did, but it was a pain **********. I just didn’t care because when I first got that car I was driving it at any opportunity no matter what. I also put 44k miles on it and destroyed so much resale value (also didn’t care).

Non-masochists would drive a normal 997 or a Boxster/Cayman. My wife made me buy her a Cayman S because she got tired of my loud and irritable beetle.

(Jokes on her though, because I traded that in for a GT4 while she wasn’t looking)

 

[TheFoo]

Again, two things. First, this entire discussion is only worth having around sports cars. But i see manufacturers start trying to tune SUV’s and roadgoing sedans on that track and that’s a step towards all cars being shite.

Second, even with sports cars the pursuit of better times comes at the cost of usability, discomfort and NVH. Every automaker and racing team tunes these cars with the same tricks. I will acknowledge through, that now they’ve moved on to active aero and cheater slick rubber - which actually doesn’t hurt NVH all that much. But come on - a GT2RS is just as driveable as a base 911?

First of all, yes, of course my point was focused on sports cars.

That said, almost every car spends time being developed on the Nurburgring, whether a sports car, luxury sedan, economy hatchback, or SUV. Unlike other tracks, it happens to simulate a very dynamic range of conditions, reflecting what one finds in real-life roads. If you think cars have broadly become more capable and comfortable—which they incontrovertibly have—it is in some part thanks to time spent at the ‘Ring.

For a long time, German makers like Mercedes and BMW seemed to have a magic hold on ride/handling balance that eluded American and Japanese companies. But over the past twenty years, everyone has begun testing at the Nurburgring and the gap has, unsurprisingly, closed by quite a bit. No better example of this than Cadillac.

@TheFoo - downforce is also extremely important on the 'ring (as @HRoi notes) and all but meaningless on the street.

Yes. But it’s only one factor and most road cars developed at the Nurburgring don’t rely on crazy aero.

You don't drive your car often enough for compromises or comfort to matter. For you its a weekend blast somewhere. If you were daily driving that car, you would probably be singing a different tune (not to mention, with that exhaust you would probably be deaf in less than 10 years...we have a guy in our group who now wears hearing aids as a result of many years of very loud cars). I have friends that have owned 997S's and 991S's at the same time as GT3s. Why... because for daily commuting they found the GT3s too raw and almost punishing on some roads. These are guys that drive modern 911s as daily drivers, and they want some creature comforts for regular but enjoyable driving.

Some of them track their GT3s, some just use them for Sunday drives, but none of them spend as much time focusing on Ring times or on which car is the "Peak Porsche." The GT3 is a great car, but its not the best sports car choice or Porsche choice for everyone. We all have subjective preferences, but there are compromises with almost any car choice. If you can't admit that there are compromises with the idea of choosing a GT3 over a 911S as a daily driver, then how can anyone take your opinion seriously?

You’re conflating conflations now. Let me parse.

1. Not going to argue over your claims about what I should feel about my own experiences with my own car. Truly ridiculous.

2. That said, you are mixing up two separate points: (1) what makes a better sports car to enjoy on the road, and (2) what makes a car more comfortable as a daily driver. I have focused most of my discussion on the first point. However, see my response to @HRoi above with respect to the second point. Virtually all cars are spending development time at the Nurburgring—in large part because they are chasing the benchmark for road manners previously set by the Germans, who always developed their cars on . . . the Nurburgring. Do you really think cars are generally less comfortable and generally drive worse on the road today than 20 years ago?

3. What is “peak” 911 or anything else to you is a separate matter as well, having nothing to do with this discussion around whether development on the Nurburgring makes road cars better road cars. That said, I think it’s hilarious that you and so many other folks take such offense. I defined what I meant, why it’s important to me, and why I think it is broadly important. Yet, rather than respond to those observations and ideas, you take every opportunity to get indignant. Chips on shoulders, I guess.

But you're not using the car as a DD. My friend's brother in law has a 991.2 GT3 and he rarely drives it. The car is mainly weekend fun because of the stiffness and noise. Neighbors complained that his car was too loud and he didn't want to wake everyone up early in the morning driving his car. His DD is a truck.

See above.

 

[patrickBOOTH]

I don't know I didn't find anything offensive about Foo's GT3 in terms of it being a daily commuter car. I think I am taller than that car is designed for, but we were in it for a few hours and I still was fine. I'd personally have no issues with that for a daily commute. If anything it would make it better, imo.

 

[clee1982]

guess everyone's tolerance is different, I know my wife would find M5 Competition too hard for sure. Caddlic didn't just magically find how to tune cars, they just decide they have to sell to a different audience as their existing audience is dying, like literally.

Though appearently that doesn't sell anyway, Caddy is killing nearly all of its sedan model...

 

[HRoi]

First of all, yes, of course my point was focused on sports cars.

That said, almost every car spends time being developed on the Nurburgring, whether a sports car, luxury sedan, economy hatchback, or SUV. Unlike other tracks, it happens to simulate a very dynamic range of conditions, reflecting what one finds in real-life roads. If you think cars have broadly become more capable and comfortable—which they incontrovertibly have—it is in some part thanks to time spent at the ‘Ring.

For a long time, German makers like Mercedes and BMW seemed to have a magic hold on ride/handling balance that eluded American and Japanese companies. But over the past twenty years, everyone has begun testing at the Nurburgring and the gap has, unsurprisingly, closed by quite a bit. No better example of this than Cadillac.

All very well and good, and broadly true. But you can see how the actual laptimes don’t matter in those use cases, yeah?

 

[OtterMeanGreen]

guess everyone's tolerance is different, I know my wife would find M5 Competition too hard for sure. Caddlic didn't just magically find how to tune cars, they just decide they have to sell to a different audience as their existing audience is dying, like literally.

Though appearently that doesn't sell anyway, Caddy is killing nearly all of its sedan model...

From bad backs to cataracts...Cadillac will find a way to thrive.

 

[UnFacconable]

First of all, yes, of course my point was focused on sports cars.

Yes. But it’s only one factor and most road cars developed at the Nurburgring don’t rely on crazy aero.

You are right, aero is just one factor. Another is transmission - it's quite clear that manual transmissions produce slower lap times. I don't think we've ever seen a posted lap time for a manual 991.2 GT3 but it is assuredly meaningfully slower than the official GT3 time. You obviously don't think automatics or DCTs provide a superior driving experience on the road. I think if you look at the increase in 'ring performance in the last few decades it predominantly boils down to three things: (1. horsepower, 2. tires, 3. aero). Further, as simulations have shown (and I've pointed out before), there are other factors which might not produce more on-road enjoyment for you like torque-vectoring all wheel drive.

2. That said, you are mixing up two separate points: (1) what makes a better sports car to enjoy on the road, and (2) what makes a car more comfortable as a daily driver. I have focused most of my discussion on the first point. However, see my response to @HRoi above with respect to the second point. Virtually all cars are spending development time at the Nurburgring—in large part because they are chasing the benchmark for road manners previously set by the Germans, who always developed their cars on . . . the Nurburgring. Do you really think cars are generally less comfortable and generally drive worse on the road today than 20 years ago?

You are moving the goal posts here. You have certainly at times focused on road performance but you also conflate street driving more generally with 'ring performance. In your quote below, you seem to be describing a Miata. Suspension tuning on the 'ring is very difference from performance maximizing, and the things manufacturers do to maximize performance is more about bragging rights than improving street enjoyment.

Broadly speaking, what makes an existing car better around the Nurburgring also tends to make it a better all-around sports car. That’s why manufacturers develop on the ‘Ring even when they have no intention of posting lap times. It rewards lightness, stiff chassis, compliant suspensions, and linear power delivery—all good things for street driving.

 

[OtterMeanGreen]

Last Bugatti was this:

and only a fool would think otherwise.

I guess call me a fool then. There must be some reason why this is exploding with appreciation. Currently worth over $40 Million.

 

[OtterMeanGreen]

Ask OMG, maybe he’s driven it once or twice

Nope. Only mustang I’ve driven worth mentioning was the 2011 Shelby GT500

 

[Texasmade]

I guess call me a fool then. There must be some reason why this is exploding with appreciation. Currently worth over $40 Million.

View attachment 1225015

Both of those Bugatti's would be cooler to drive on the road than the current super car Bugatti's currently being churned out.

 

[OtterMeanGreen]

Both of those Bugatti's would be cooler to drive on the road than the current super car Bugatti's currently being churned out.

I think a lot of that has to do with the clientele. I have great respect for those that appreciate the classics and drive them in the manner that they were meant to drive, instead of sitting in a garage or in some crowded city street, purely meant to flex your wealth. Take modern Bugatti owners: from celebrities like Gordon Ramsey to Saudi royalty summering in the crowded streets of London. Not many are driving them nearly as spirited as you see journalists like Chris Harris. Unless you have your own private racetrack, there aren’t many roads that can tame these cars, hence what is the point other then showing off your wealth? I’ve driven the Veyron and to me it felt like a heavy temperamental pig under 100mph.

 

[HRoi]

There’s absolutely nothing in common with Ettore’s company and the Bugatti of today. The latter is just VAG’s holding brand for them to offer the most over-the-top vehicles that they can build. In keeping with their former CEO Ferdinand Piech’s philosophies, i guess

 

[Dino944]

You’re conflating conflations now. Let me parse.

1. Not going to argue over your claims about what I should feel about my own experiences with my own car. Truly ridiculous.

2. That said, you are mixing up two separate points: (1) what makes a better sports car to enjoy on the road, and (2) what makes a car more comfortable as a daily driver. I have focused most of my discussion on the first point. However, see my response to @HRoi above with respect to the second point. Virtually all cars are spending development time at the Nurburgring—in large part because they are chasing the benchmark for road manners previously set by the Germans, who always developed their cars on . . . the Nurburgring. Do you really think cars are generally less comfortable and generally drive worse on the road today than 20 years ago?

3. What is “peak” 911 or anything else to you is a separate matter as well, having nothing to do with this discussion around whether development on the Nurburgring makes road cars better road cars. That said, I think it’s hilarious that you and so many other folks take such offense. I defined what I meant, why it’s important to me, and why I think it is broadly important. Yet, rather than respond to those observations and ideas, you take every opportunity to get indignant. Chips on shoulders, I guess.

I get the use of the Nurburgring in the development of cars. Yes, it helps make cars better. Its just the lap time isn't the end all be all for most people in choosing a car, especially not for a daily driver. I could see that if one was tracking a car, but in real life driving it doesn't matter that much whether the one car is a few tenths of a second quicker than another. A driver's skills often matter more.

As for chips on shoulders, nope. Wish you all the best. I just think your perspective is different because you don't daily drive your car. Occasionally encountering imperfect roads, and occasionally being stuck in stop and go traffic isn't the same thing as dealing with it on a daily basis.