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Cars We Drive!

Discussion in 'Fine Living, Home, Design & Auto' started by Bert1568, Jul 18, 2006.

  1. TheFoo

    TheFoo THE FOO Dubiously Honored

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    Maybe. But weight is weight. Four motors provides more power and more control—but that much more weight as well. Plus, as componentry gets heavier, you need more robust chassis designs to ensure structural integrity and crash safety, adding even more weight.

    A company like McLaren knows how to hustle a car around the track and cannot be criticized for not having a handle on technology. Yet, when they designed the Senna to eclipse the P1 in track performance, they got rid of the batteries.

    So, it’s not just Lamborghini. McLaren, Porsche, Ferrari, etc., all hold the same line on the subject.

    If future electric cars ultimately do exceed current ICE cars in lateral agility, I suspect they won’t much resemble what you or I think of as a “car” to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019

  2. clee1982

    clee1982 Stylish Dinosaur

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    Well it’s all speculation at this point

    I won’t be surprised it’s one of those you get worse before it gets better as i’m not aware any fundamental physical law that would cap development in improving energy density/weight on battery
     

  3. culverwood

    culverwood Distinguished Member

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    Pikes Peak VW I.D. R EV
     

  4. Thrift Vader

    Thrift Vader Forum Mechanic

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    The development of lithium ion batteries was pushed forward by an engineer at Sony.
    Yoshio Nishi?
    To improve the performance of mobile phones.
    Currently work is on a solid state battery.

    Electric cars powered by solid state batteries can go much further. And have more recharge cycles.

    The future is a lithium air battery. At 1/3 the weight of current batteries.

    -news on TV now...:dozingoff:

    I still believe that the new generation of Supra's should have been built using Toyota's hydrogen technology.

    Not super fast, but a unique concept, in a stylish package? That could be developed further by the aftermarket. And later updated versions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019

  5. Dino944

    Dino944 Distinguished Member

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    The NSX, was an interesting car, but never my dream car either. I can remember a Florida dealership that sold Ferrari, Lotus, and Aston Martin creating an ad (and then Porsche did something similar for their 964 ad), saying,"When you were growing up, did you really dream about owning a Honda, a Nissan, or a Mazda? We didn't think so." Then it had logos of photos and images of Ferraris, Aston Martins, and Lotus cars.

    Here was Porsche's version of the ad which came out a bit later.
    [​IMG]



    I think we've all become a bit spoiled in terms of what we consider powerful cars, because so many cars today make well over 300 HP. However, most sports cars back then weren't producing huge amounts of horsepower. In the 1990s, the NSX had a reasonable amount of power relative to offerings from Europe that were 100K or less. The 964/911 Carrera 2 and Carrera 4 only had 247 hp unless you went to a Turbo...which in 1991 had 315 hp (it took the later 3.6 to get 350 hp). Ferrari's 348 -stumpy mini- Testarossa with twitchy handling at high speeds, made 296 hp when first released. And Lotus's Turbo Esprit SE made 264 hp (but claimed to make up to 290 for brief sprints). So the NSX's horsepower was fine when it was released...although by the mid to late 90s it was outgunned by the then current offerings from a variety of other companies.

    You definitely do not want to assume the dealer will do a great install or use great products. 2 guys I know, decided to use the Porsche dealers where they bought their cars because it was cheaper than using the place with the best reputation in our region. Both cars are 911s (one is a GT3 RS)... and the workmanship done at 2 different dealers was terrible. It definitely, looks like amateur hour...and actually, one guy has made the dealership do the work again twice...and it still looks like sh*t. Do your homework, and at least check out some cars that have had PPF/clear bra done at the dealership and some cars at places with solid reputations in your area before deciding. However, in my experience, the PPF work done by my local MB, BMW, and Porsche dealers is just not up to the standards of the place that I use. For me it was worth it to spend a bit more and have it done correctly. Wishing you luck with whatever you decide.
     

  6. ridethecliche

    ridethecliche Stylish Dinosaur

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    That ad is kinda funny these days because as the 'fast and furious' generation is growing up, those japanese cars are EXACTLY what they dreamed of owning in their youth.

    I think the original NSX was a halo car because it was mid engine, a pretty big detour for honda since they were a commuter car company taking on the giants, and because... Senna.

    DID YOU GUYS FORGET ABOUT SENNA?!
    I mean... he's part of the reason that car got the reputation that it did.
    How can you forget about this?



    It made honda a thing and they've continued doing some amazing things since.

    I honestly think that the HP games are overrated since all these cars will go fast enough to put you in jail. The low down torque really matters because that's what counts for fun on the street. And the driving dynamics really count. That's where the money is. I'm sure the engine mods will show up pushing these cars to the 400-600 level soon enough. If they can handle strip or track abuse at that point it'll be clutch.

    Also, the new miata is going to be doing some damage to the twins. The new motor updates are really keeping with the spirit of the car and I think that it should hit 200hp at the crank with some IHE mods. That puts it right up there in power with the twins while being a dynamically better car imho.
    https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2019-mazda-mx-5-miata-engine-more-power
     

  7. OtterMeanGreen

    OtterMeanGreen Distinguished Member

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    Great video, the NSX sure was an icon. it's amazing he can do all that in just loafers. I'm not even close to that in my Piloti's lol. Growing up I often saw it on my friends walls, can't say that about a lot of modern supercars these days. The days of the ICON are becoming rarer and rarer.

    That video reminded me of this one. Such raw sound, power and dynamics. It's really no wonder why the Ferrari F40 is still a favorite among almost every automotive journalist out there.

     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019

  8. HRoi

    HRoi Stylish Dinosaur

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    Dino, i assume that ad is from the early 90’s because it features a 964. I recently saw the mirror image of that ad, except it was for the current Corvette. Those GM dipshits - the one time i think they came up with a nice burn, and they totally ripped it off from Porsche!!
     

  9. Dino944

    Dino944 Distinguished Member

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    Different cars mean different things to different generations. Yes, I remember Senna's involvement, but it didn't make me dream of owning one. I can recall when these cars were new. They were interesting looking and they were selling for over MSRP during the first year. Silver was the rarest color when these were new, and dealers around me were charging $80K for red, $90K for black, and $110K for silver. They offered great performance for their time, but during the first year they were hardly a bargain because if you wanted one they were well over list price. Still, they made Ferrari and Porsche take notice and improve their offerings. However, eventually the newness of the cars wore off, Ferrari, Porsche and Lotus improved their offerings, and NSXs were tough for dealers to move. I was surprised it remained in production for so long.

    Yes, Fast N Furious has renewed interest in the NSX, and other vintage Japanese cars. I always think its great when a younger generation is interested in vintage cars, whether they are Japanese, American, or European cars. I love cars, and I can appreciate the effort people put into taking care of their cars. For me it is always fun seeing cars from when I was growing up or in school, meeting the owners, and hearing the stories about the cars and why the bought them, be it an air cooled 911, a Ferrari 512 BBi, or an NSX. But if I had room for one more car in my garage...it would be for something European.
     

  10. Dino944

    Dino944 Distinguished Member

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    Yes, that print ad was from the 1990s, when the 964s were still a current product. I haven't seen the Corvette one, but I will be sure to keep an eye out for it.
     

  11. ridethecliche

    ridethecliche Stylish Dinosaur

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    Yup, I think the most notable thing that the NSX did was to force other manufacturers to get their shit together because performance didn't have to come with obscene maintenance requirements if done right. I think that's what its remembered for as well.

    A local ish guy autocrosses in his OG NSX and loves it.
     

  12. clee1982

    clee1982 Stylish Dinosaur

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    FF was more Supra/GTR though? A bit NSX, then Evo (was there even WRX?), on the 2nd tier stuff, Eclipse showed up, don’t remember if something like 3000 GT was in it
     

  13. jet

    jet Persian Bro

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    I remember seeing the nsx-r in the road and track or one of those when it was first released in japan. That sparked my whole type r obsession back then man those red seats holy fuck. I eventually got a brand new type r crate motor from the dealer to put in my integra in the 90s. We torqued the head with complete valve train, r cams and all that. Paired with the R trans, skunk cam gears, dyno tuned with new ecu I used to spank e36 m3s and the like in a straight line.

    FF is garbage, nobody was looking at nsxs then. Despise that whole series and the depictions. We used to have a legit underground street racing scene back then in compton, sylmar and ontario man shit was nuts then.
     

  14. HRoi

    HRoi Stylish Dinosaur

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    I am going to try to find this article i read about the Japanese auto industry in the 90’s. The synopsis was that a confluence of one-time events suddenly turned a war-ravaged, tiny island nation of Japan into the premier economy of the world. and Japanese industry found itself with all this money they NEEDED to spend. So they went nuts in trying to build the best cars in the world, some of which never saw the light of day when the bottom of the economy inevitably fell out.

    And this is why the best cars from Japan are from that era. I for one didn’t truly appreciate how they delivered such cheap, reliable performance back then...and didn’t foresee the end either
     

  15. UnFacconable

    UnFacconable Distinguished Member

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    I remember the 1990's Nissan 300zx being pretty sweet. The twin turbo was more powerful than the NSX and I believe it had a better power to weight ratio. There were a few years there when those Japanese cars looked like the future and Porsche (and Jaguar, etc.) looked like they were running on fumes. Here's a comparison between the 300zx and the outgoing 944 turbo which conveys a sense of what I'm getting at. Now people might say the 300zx of that era was more of a GT but really what has the 911 become.

    I'm also not exactly of the same mind with Foo on the new NSX in large part because I think that these high end sports cars are selling a fairy tale. I don't disagree that from a pure performance standpoint the NSX could be seen as a fail (although not as much as the i8 which I have harped on more than enough times in this thread). There are just so many conflicting factors - manual vs automatic, powertrain tractability and flexibility, etc. - that impact the analysis but seem to be left out depending on what the proponent is trying to achieve. For example, I would be surprised if Foo could hustle his manual GT3 around a track faster than he could a new NSX. I would be shocked if the difference in performance between the GT3 and NSX would be noticeable on the street. The main difference between the cars is in feel; the performance envelope difference for most drives is about as meaningful as the difference in depth ratings between the Rolex sub and seadweller. The nurburgring times are also apples to oranges because as far as I can tell he is quoting the official time for a new GT3 (which is like 13 seconds faster than the PDK GT3 that was available at the time the new NSX came out) against an unofficial NSX time. I don't believe there is an official ring time for the new NSX but happy to be proven wrong.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the GT3 (and RS) aren't far superior cars for track rats than the NSX, that isn't in doubt. I think the fact that Porsche sells so many GT3s to people who aren't track rats proves that it's a bit silly to discuss ultimate performance as if it would be meaningful to the way the cars are used by their drivers. In large part it's symbolic.
     

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