Cars We Drive!

Discussion in 'Fine Living, Home, Design & Auto' started by Bert1568, Jul 18, 2006.

  1. Arthur PE

    Arthur PE Senior member

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    MSEE and a BSMech Eng
    I'm taking about conventional cars, not really 'track specials' (for me, I'll take a GT3 thank you, lol)

    People set different priorities....and in order to discuss anything in snipets, generalization/simplification is required. And as in Pareto, I believe 20% of the variables can define 80% of the situations in this case. I have no issue (none of my damn business, and who the heck am I anyways) with someone selecting a car as accessory, for the 'statement' or impression one chooses to project, or just because they like the way it 'looks'. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but imho a machine should be judged first as a machine, and objet d'art second.

    Actually a few configurations have 'balance' (0 1st and 2nd order free forces and 0 1st and 2nd order free moments), opposed 6 and inline 6: would that make them superior? A V8 can be better than a V12, and it comes down to engineering (in the broad sense, QA/QC, manufacturing, etc.). My personal preference is the I6, an amazing engine.

    Although marketing and panache are attributes that may help sell a product to a given demographic, even a highly technical product like a car, regardless, engineering/design are still a factor in the equation, and it is up to the consumer to prioritize the attributes (weight the variables).

    The fact that BMW can build an M car, and sell it for so little, yet offer such a high level of performance and comfort is another attribute: value.
    There is no 'right' or 'wrong' when it comes down to consumer choices, only opinions.

     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  2. oneeightyseven

    oneeightyseven Almost Special

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    can you guys tell me the advantage of buying brabus?
     
  3. Arthur PE

    Arthur PE Senior member

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    a good comparison M3 vs base 997 http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2009-porsche-911-carrera-vs-2009-bmw-m3-comparison-tests

    1/4 mile
    997 12.5/113
    M3 12.6/113

    0-100 both 9.9

    0-150
    997 25.2
    M3 25.9

    track
    997 1:45
    M3 1:43.9

    handling
    both 0.93 g skidpad
    braking M3 by a foot, call it even
    lane change BMW is >2 mph faster 70.4 vs 68.2

    price, base/as fitted
    997 76/81 (5k in options, almost a stripper when it comes to a base Porsche)
    M3 60/73 (13k in options), the 997 base price is >20% greater, and even with te M3 loaded it's >10% greater

    I don't think anyone would say the 997 ate the M3 the %^^$ up....drivers race

     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  4. Arthur PE

    Arthur PE Senior member

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    they make a gawd awful fast car if you get the right mods, might be the fastest 4 door
    very exclusive tuner
    very expensive

    imo a 'regular' MB AMG C, E or S series is a heck of a car, especially with the sport/performance packages...
    plus warranty, readily available service, and for the price difference you can option the heck out of the car and get a very bespoke ride


     
  5. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    Why are you guys even comparing the M3 to the 997?
     
  6. Arthur PE

    Arthur PE Senior member

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    actually they are bought by the same demographic and a lot of cross purchasing
    M3 to 997, and believe it or not, 997 to M3
    and their performance envelopes are very similar
    as are driving dynamics (both great drives, throttle controllable, precise, etc.) although they go about if differently, the M3 wt dist. is 50/50 and the 997 35/65 or so, different driving technique, same result, both fast and fun


     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  7. RFX45

    RFX45 Senior member

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    I don't know, this forum is too baller compared to the other forums I visit but the market for the M3 and 911's are pretty different from what I observe and 911's are usually on a higher tier. Performance-wise, no ones laughing at the M3 but the 911 is just way more expensive and on a different level.

    It's like comparing the Cayman and 370Z. Sure you save a few more bucks with the Nissan and quite possibly win in most categories but if I am looking at a Cayman, the 370Z is going to be an after thought. And if I'm looking at the 370Z, the Cayman certainly isn't going to be part of the equation.
     
  8. jet

    jet Persian Bro

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    I was talking about the carrera s.

    The 911 is a real sports car, m3 is a gt. In an m3 you are riding a horse, in a 911 you are the horse.

    Besides, the e92 looks like doodoo as do most modern bmws and customers are not the same for both.
     
  9. Arthur PE

    Arthur PE Senior member

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    the M3 and 997S are the same speed around the 'Ring, 13.2 miles, 100 mph average...to the second
    but for the price difference you can SC the M3, still spend less, and have a car that will suck the windows out of a 997S
    yes, the M3 is a GT, but still runs with the 997, S or not, so a sports car that isn't faster than a GT isn't much of a sports car imo, not to mention usability/practicality

    many think the 911 is fugly, an expedient solution made by Dr. Ing. (hc) F. Porsche so he could sell all the VW bug chassis he had lying around
    it's an icon, but if he could do it all over, he'd go mid engine, wait, they did, and front too...
    the new 911 is better, longer wheelbase, and move the engine forward a bit more...
    actually customers are the same for both...if you look at Porsche and M forums you will see much back and forth, both ways...

    I've owned both, and put 100's of k miles on each...if I had to choose 1, M3/5 for me...but there are more options, I have an RS4 that is fast enough, 4 door and the quattro is the icing on the cake...plenty of good choices, but saying the 997 is a better car than an M3 is not accurate, and vice versa, all depends on the evaluation criteria


     
  10. Arthur PE

    Arthur PE Senior member

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    actually M and Porsche (base cars) are direct competition, in this country where they can't be used as intended, there has become a status or style element associated with each...
    in Germany Porsche holds no special hipo status and M's, RS's and AMG's are just as coveted, and Germans know cars...we are a bit more fixated on 'brand'


    all said and done, 90k for a 997S or 90k for a new M5, daily driver, not 'summer' car, I'll go with the M5, 5 passenger, and just as fast, if not faster...
    this is not to say the 911 series is not a great car (particularly the awd turbo's) but they are over-rated imho and better value can be had, if you are dead set on the 'looks', well that is a different matter
     
  11. jet

    jet Persian Bro

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    The 911s is 6 seconds faster around the ring than the m3 and this was tested in 2004 before the power bumps. I'd ask you for more track times but not sure I'd trust you with those.

    Kiss your warranty goodbye with a blower. Ironic how you clown the 911 yet want a gt-3 which is the same body style which says absolutely nothing of the m3's heinous looks.

    I've been on car forums longer than you I'm sure and people don't cross-shop the two. No sense arguing further, and I'm sure others will further correct you.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  12. HRoi

    HRoi Senior member

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    RFX - nice E89
     
  13. GreenFrog

    GreenFrog Senior member

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    HRoi: you own a ZHP and an e9x M3, correct?

    Would I regret selling my ZHP and getting myself into an M3?
     
  14. jet

    jet Persian Bro

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    Hroi has the best car in this threak.
     
  15. HRoi

    HRoi Senior member

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    i have a E90 M3 and a 330ci, non-ZHP. the performance difference between the two is astronomical, although i will always love my e46 and think it's one of the most gorgeous cars ever made. the only reason you would regret it would be if you compromised your financial position to upgrade, or gave up something more important than a car. oh, and don't buy the E9x if you die a little everytime you need to fill the tank.


    thanks brudda :fistbump:

    to your points earlier, i don't think i would have "cross shopped" the 997 and the M3. they are complementary in the sense that that one filled a need that the other could not, and vice versa.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012

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