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Pascal1980

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Hello everybody,

a colleague asked me about my experience with the different mid-tier shoemakers. Here is what I think:

I am familiar mostly with Crockett & Jones (C&J) and Heinrich-Dinkelacker (HD), because they are easily accessible here in Frankfurt am Main, Germany, in the higher-level shoe stores. The quality is the same, albeit the styles are very different. C&J is on average 100€ more expensive than HD, because HD now produces in Spain. HD has by far more derbies and derby boots, the typical German-Hungarian-Austrian styles, than C%J. Also HD has the wider lasts "Buda", "Rio", "Genf", "Zürich", and particularly "Janosh" and "Janosh K" in the very wide "K" width.

TLB Mallorca and Carmina I tried as well. Carmina has nowadays also retailers in Germany, like the mens' fashion store "Anton Meyer" or so with the Carmina oxfords and boots. Hence Carmina is also easily accessible here in Germany similar to C&J and HD. Carmina has more styles and lasts than any of the other mid-tier shoe makers and is in terms of quality similar. The Carmina store in Paris is also close by, 3.5h by train, and I was there with my girlfriend before Christmas to try different lasts.

The TLB Mallorca Artista line is very nice, only accessile online, and offers are very high quality for the price. If the three lasts they offer fit you, they are a good choice.

Therefore it comes down to accessibility, the fit of the lasts, and which styles you prefer. I think C&J is still in terms of the upper leathers, which are more supple, still a notch better, but up to 100€ to 200€ more expensive in their benchgrade shoes than Carmina, TLB Mallorca and HD.

Hence the quality in terms of stiching of the uppers, welts etc. are comparable and high, with the differences being stylistic choices made by the shoe makers.
So C&J, HD, Carmina, TLB Mallorca Artista Line, Vass and Enzo Nonafe I would put into the mid-tier shoe makers that are interesting with a good value-to-money relationship I think.

If you have wide feet, HD offers you the broadest range of lasts and styles. If you like oxfords, the TLB Mallorca Artista Line has the largest range of styles. Carmina has the most extensive and flexible MTO customization program and are therefore a very interesting choice in their MTO promotions in March and October/November without the upcharge for the customization. C&J is classic British with more casual boots, loafers and country derbies nowadays

Enzo Bonafe I do not have ever seen. Edward Green I tried here in a mens clothing boutique and their lasts do not fit me well, also they are overpriced compared to CJ handgrade. VASS is also difficult to assess, either online only or by visiting their store in Budapest.

My girlfried liked the stiching of Carmina better for instance than of CJ benchgrade, and looked at the edges of the leather, which was better at Carmina than CJ. We were surprised to see that. Also my cobbler, Alexander Dohn, says that Carmina is similar in quality to CJ, and then also TLB Mallorca Artista as well.

Best regards

Pascal
 

daisybay

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Hello everybody,

a colleague asked me about my experience with the different mid-tier shoemakers. Here is what I think:

I am familiar mostly with Crockett & Jones (C&J) and Heinrich-Dinkelacker (HD), because they are easily accessible here in Frankfurt am Main, Germany, in the higher-level shoe stores. The quality is the same, albeit the styles are very different. C&J is on average 100€ more expensive than HD, because HD now produces in Spain. HD has by far more derbies and derby boots, the typical German-Hungarian-Austrian styles, than C%J. Also HD has the wider lasts "Buda", "Rio", "Genf", "Zürich", and particularly "Janosh" and "Janosh K" in the very wide "K" width.

TLB Mallorca and Carmina I tried as well. Carmina has nowadays also retailers in Germany, like the mens' fashion store "Anton Meyer" or so with the Carmina oxfords and boots. Hence Carmina is also easily accessible here in Germany similar to C&J and HD. Carmina has more styles and lasts than any of the other mid-tier shoe makers and is in terms of quality similar. The Carmina store in Paris is also close by, 3.5h by train, and I was there with my girlfriend before Christmas to try different lasts.

The TLB Mallorca Artista line is very nice, only accessile online, and offers are very high quality for the price. If the three lasts they offer fit you, they are a good choice.

Therefore it comes down to accessibility, the fit of the lasts, and which styles you prefer. I think C&J is still in terms of the upper leathers, which are more supple, still a notch better, but up to 100€ to 200€ more expensive in their benchgrade shoes than Carmina, TLB Mallorca and HD.

Hence the quality in terms of stiching of the uppers, welts etc. are comparable and high, with the differences being stylistic choices made by the shoe makers.
So C&J, HD, Carmina, TLB Mallorca Artista Line, Vass and Enzo Nonafe I would put into the mid-tier shoe makers that are interesting with a good value-to-money relationship I think.

If you have wide feet, HD offers you the broadest range of lasts and styles. If you like oxfords, the TLB Mallorca Artista Line has the largest range of styles. Carmina has the most extensive and flexible MTO customization program and are therefore a very interesting choice in their MTO promotions in March and October/November without the upcharge for the customization. C&J is classic British with more casual boots, loafers and country derbies nowadays

Enzo Bonafe I do not have ever seen. Edward Green I tried here in a mens clothing boutique and their lasts do not fit me well, also they are overpriced compared to CJ handgrade. VASS is also difficult to assess, either online only or by visiting their store in Budapest.

My girlfried liked the stiching of Carmina better for instance than of CJ benchgrade, and looked at the edges of the leather, which was better at Carmina than CJ. We were surprised to see that. Also my cobbler, Alexander Dohn, says that Carmina is similar in quality to CJ, and then also TLB Mallorca Artista as well.

Best regards

Pascal
Hi Pascal, nice read! What are your thoughts on Alden?
I have a pair of the Jcrew Alden Shell PCT and a carmina custom shell chelsea. Both shells are horween and yet the Alden/jcrew one feels so much thicker and sturdier than the carmina boot. I was quite surprised. They are both lined. Maybe they did that b/c the PCT boot is supposed to be more casual and outdoorsy while the chelsea is more dressy.
I also have a CJ chelsea 8 and that boot fits me better than the carmina chelsea in inca. It is funny bc when I tried the inca last chelsea in the store, it fit SO good, heel was snug. But when I got it, there was a little heel slip. Honestly if CJ made a shell chelsea I woulda gone that route (and yes I know they "can" custom, but CJ's custom is very expensive). Now the CJ harvard is on my wish list!
 

Pascal1980

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Hi Pascal, nice read! What are your thoughts on Alden?
I have a pair of the Jcrew Alden Shell PCT and a carmina custom shell chelsea. Both shells are horween and yet the Alden/jcrew one feels so much thicker and sturdier than the carmina boot. I was quite surprised. They are both lined. Maybe they did that b/c the PCT boot is supposed to be more casual and outdoorsy while the chelsea is more dressy.
I also have a CJ chelsea 8 and that boot fits me better than the carmina chelsea in inca. It is funny bc when I tried the inca last chelsea in the store, it fit SO good, heel was snug. But when I got it, there was a little heel slip. Honestly if CJ made a shell chelsea I woulda gone that route (and yes I know they "can" custom, but CJ's custom is very expensive). Now the CJ harvard is on my wish list!
Hello daisybay,

thanks for your compliment. I appreciate it.

I cannot say anything about Alden, as I never tried their shoes. I just saw their boots in a mens fashion store in Hamburg. They looked comparable to my "Luzern" boots from HD.

The thickness of the leather has not necessarily something to do with "quality", however it is defined, but is a stylistic choice made by the shoe maker. Thinner leathers are more pliable and often softer, albeit not necessarily as durable as thicker leathers.

If you like the "Inca" last from Carmina, go for it. I liked it as well when trying their lasts in the Paris store.

I looked up out of curiosity the wage differences between Inca on Mallorca in Spain, where TLB Mallorca and Carmina are based, and Northhampton in the UK where C&J is based. The average salary in Inca on Mallorca is 28,000€, and the average salary in Northhamptonshire is 34,000 GBP, or around 40,800€. That is already a 40% difference of higher salaries in Northhamptonshire than in Inca on Mallorca. As around 50% of a shoe's manufacturing costs are labor costs, this explains already roughly a price difference of 20%. Another difference is that the quality control in the production process of C&J is supposed to be better, more labour intensive, with a more diligent final quality control and finishing of the shoes before they are shipped to the customer or retail stores. That adds another few percentage points of price difference to the higher prices of C&J compared to the Spanish-based shoemakers. Then add a little bit of higher costs for "British shoe heritage" to C&J compared to the Spanish brands, and maybe a little bit better raw materials and you have easily a price difference of 30% to 40% of C&J benchgrade shoes compared to the shoes manufactured in Inca on Mallorca by Carmina and TLB Mallorca.

Then take the average salary of just ~1,200€ per month in Budapest, or ~14,400€ per year, and you get a perspective in which way hand-made shoes from Vass in Budapest can be manufactured relativly cheaper compared to the shoes manufactured in Spain or Northhampton. The average salary in Budapest is only half of what is paid in Inca on Mallorca and a third of what is paid in Northhamptonshire.

Enjoy your evening and best regards

Pascal
 

JTMD

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Double Monks in Burgundy Shell Cordovan on the Inca last for today.

20250114_154846.jpg


20250114_154924.jpg


20250114_154908.jpg


20250114_154835.jpg
 

daisybay

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Hello daisybay,

thanks for your compliment. I appreciate it.

I cannot say anything about Alden, as I never tried their shoes. I just saw their boots in a mens fashion store in Hamburg. They looked comparable to my "Luzern" boots from HD.

The thickness of the leather has not necessarily something to do with "quality", however it is defined, but is a stylistic choice made by the shoe maker. Thinner leathers are more pliable and often softer, albeit not necessarily as durable as thicker leathers.

If you like the "Inca" last from Carmina, go for it. I liked it as well when trying their lasts in the Paris store.

I looked up out of curiosity the wage differences between Inca on Mallorca in Spain, where TLB Mallorca and Carmina are based, and Northhampton in the UK where C&J is based. The average salary in Inca on Mallorca is 28,000€, and the average salary in Northhamptonshire is 34,000 GBP, or around 40,800€. That is already a 40% difference of higher salaries in Northhamptonshire than in Inca on Mallorca. As around 50% of a shoe's manufacturing costs are labor costs, this explains already roughly a price difference of 20%. Another difference is that the quality control in the production process of C&J is supposed to be better, more labour intensive, with a more diligent final quality control and finishing of the shoes before they are shipped to the customer or retail stores. That adds another few percentage points of price difference to the higher prices of C&J compared to the Spanish-based shoemakers. Then add a little bit of higher costs for "British shoe heritage" to C&J compared to the Spanish brands, and maybe a little bit better raw materials and you have easily a price difference of 30% to 40% of C&J benchgrade shoes compared to the shoes manufactured in Inca on Mallorca by Carmina and TLB Mallorca.

Then take the average salary of just ~1,200€ per month in Budapest, or ~14,400€ per year, and you get a perspective in which way hand-made shoes from Vass in Budapest can be manufactured relativly cheaper compared to the shoes manufactured in Spain or Northhampton. The average salary in Budapest is only half of what is paid in Inca on Mallorca and a third of what is paid in Northhamptonshire.

Enjoy your evening and best regards

Pascal
Thank you Pascal for your detailed response! Ive found myself enjoying wearing the CJ more than the carmina. But let's see how they were years from now :)

Have a nice evening as well!
-Charlie
 

scb

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so I know there’s talk often on here about mismatched cordovan and every time it seems people say “that’s not a flaw, that’s a feature,” but I’m curious if you’ll still say that about these.

I bought a pair of natural shell cordovan longings back in 2018. When they arrived, the colors didn’t match, but Carmina told me they will even out over time

It’s 2025 and the left shoe has gotten even more 2-toned than when it arrived

I didn’t order a 2-toned left shoe and single-tone right shoe

I know it’s been years, but I feel like if I walked in to the Carmina store a few blocks from my office, they might say “that doesn’t look right”

Or will they just say “sorry, too bad?”

IMG_1281.jpeg
 

Blastwice

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so I know there’s talk often on here about mismatched cordovan and every time it seems people say “that’s not a flaw, that’s a feature,” but I’m curious if you’ll still say that about these.

I bought a pair of natural shell cordovan longings back in 2018. When they arrived, the colors didn’t match, but Carmina told me they will even out over time

It’s 2025 and the left shoe has gotten even more 2-toned than when it arrived

I didn’t order a 2-toned left shoe and single-tone right shoe

I know it’s been years, but I feel like if I walked in to the Carmina store a few blocks from my office, they might say “that doesn’t look right”

Or will they just say “sorry, too bad?”

View attachment 2314857

It's been 7 years and you're keeping a pair you don't like just to take it out and reassure yourself you still don't like it?

The only thing 99% of the people you meet will notice about these shoes is that they aren't one of those "cheap ones" with the white sneaker soles.

Why did you spend extra money on shell if you're not okay with the variation in the first place?

Those shoes look great, but if I were you, I might sell them. Probably would be happier and someone else would be too.
 

scb

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It's been 7 years and you're keeping a pair you don't like just to take it out and reassure yourself you still don't like it?

The only thing 99% of the people you meet will notice about these shoes is that they aren't one of those "cheap ones" with the white sneaker soles.

Why did you spend extra money on shell if you're not okay with the variation in the first place?

Those shoes look great, but if I were you, I might sell them. Probably would be happier and someone else would be too.
I don't really think the attitude in your post was necessary.

I am fine with variation in shell (and am fine with my other shoes that have it). But variation in shell to me is a single piece that has different shading or some marbling. Variation should not be a shoe that looks like they put a shoe together out of different color pieces.

The left shoe looks almost like armagnac shell mixed with bourbon shell.
 

Crafty Cumbrian

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so I know there’s talk often on here about mismatched cordovan and every time it seems people say “that’s not a flaw, that’s a feature,” but I’m curious if you’ll still say that about these.

I bought a pair of natural shell cordovan longings back in 2018. When they arrived, the colors didn’t match, but Carmina told me they will even out over time

It’s 2025 and the left shoe has gotten even more 2-toned than when it arrived

I didn’t order a 2-toned left shoe and single-tone right shoe

I know it’s been years, but I feel like if I walked in to the Carmina store a few blocks from my office, they might say “that doesn’t look right”

Or will they just say “sorry, too bad?”

View attachment 2314857
Natural shell with wear and conditioning ages super quickly, I’d try conditioning them and exposure to wear and light should make the differences less obvious. I’d take those as firsts so no reason to think otherwise. Will/are a lovely pair and the thing of beauty with shell is the shell lotto!
 

JTMD

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so I know there’s talk often on here about mismatched cordovan and every time it seems people say “that’s not a flaw, that’s a feature,” but I’m curious if you’ll still say that about these.

I bought a pair of natural shell cordovan longings back in 2018. When they arrived, the colors didn’t match, but Carmina told me they will even out over time

It’s 2025 and the left shoe has gotten even more 2-toned than when it arrived

I didn’t order a 2-toned left shoe and single-tone right shoe

I know it’s been years, but I feel like if I walked in to the Carmina store a few blocks from my office, they might say “that doesn’t look right”

Or will they just say “sorry, too bad?”

View attachment 2314857

I would think after 7 years they probably wouldn't have much to offer. What would you expect them to do? Recondition them? Refund part of your money? Give you a new pair? Apologize? I understand your issue. I have a pair of Carmina's in cognac that always look as if I had put on 2 different colored shoes (to my eye). But I feel any complaints should have been made long ago when the choice was reuturn or keep. You might get a sympathetic ear at the shop near home but if you mentioned it to Carmina in Spain they'd probably tell you to F off and that you were insulting their artisans (or something along those lines).
 

scb

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I would think after 7 years they probably wouldn't have much to offer. What would you expect them to do? Recondition them? Refund part of your money? Give you a new pair? Apologize? I understand your issue. I have a pair of Carmina's in cognac that always look as if I had put on 2 different colored shoes (to my eye). But I feel any complaints should have been made long ago when the choice was reuturn or keep. You might get a sympathetic ear at the shop near home but if you mentioned it to Carmina in Spain they'd probably tell you to F off and that you were insulting their artisans (or something along those lines).
I'm not actually here saying Carmina should replace my shoes.

But since I'm wearing them today, it's fresh in my mind. And since they originally told me "it'll even out over time," and it's in fact gotten more 2-toned over time, I figured I'd just ask opinions here.

I have no issue with the shell variations in my natural jumper boots or bourbon PTB. But this is just such a stark contrast where the 1 shoe really looks like it's supposed to be 2 different colors (and the last time I wore them, someone at work told me I wore mismatched shoes to the office).

I understand that I probably should have said more when I bought these. But I didn't want to rock the boat at the NYC store and just went with it when told "oh don't worry, it'll even out" since I didn't really know that wasn't the case.
 
Last edited:

JTMD

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I'm not actually here saying Carmina should replace my shoes.

But since I'm wearing them today, it's fresh in my mind. And since they originally told me "it'll even out over time," and it's in fact gotten more 2-toned over time, I figured I'd just ask opinions here.

I have no issue with the shell variations in my natural jumper boots or bourbon PTB. But this is just such a stark contrast where the 1 shoe really looks like it's supposed to be 2 different colors (and the last time I wore them, someone at work told me I wore mismatched shoes to the office).

I understand that I probably should have said more when I bought these. But I didn't want to rock the boat at the NYC store and just went with it when told "oh don't worry, it'll even out" since I didn't really know that wasn't the case.

Yeah, I get it. In my experience Carmina is less than stellar with QC. Of course you can go in and mention something. Maybe they can offer to try and do something with them to even it out. Never know unless you try. But a conversation 7 years ago probably isn't going to carry much weight even if you find the same person who made such a claim. And of course it will be easy to turn it on you after all this time. "You did this" "you didn't do that" "you must have used an product we don't recommend", "it's natural for shell to deviate over time", blah, blah, blah. Again, you have nothing to lose (but time) in enquiring, so why not?

I didn't actually think you wanted Carmina to replace them versus mentioning it with the others when trying to figure out what your thoughts were on a solution...though...I have seen some folks come up with things most would find unreasonable 😅
 

KarlHungus

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As has been pointed out shell often results in slightly different shades between panels (more pronounced in direct light), but ideally the clicking should be done so that the left and right shoe are generally consistent with each other, even if within a shoe itself there is variation. You can see the shell boots I'm wearing today (from another maker but worn in honor of the shell mismatch theme discussed here) have different panel shades but they match across left and right foot.
IMG20250116103149.jpg

I have another pair from Carmina where the two shoes are entirely different colors -- these were sold as seconds :lol:
IMG_20210622_175928.jpg
 

scb

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ideally the clicking should be done so that the left and right shoe are generally consistent with each other, even if within a shoe itself there is variation. You can see the shell boots I'm wearing today (from another maker but worn in honor of the shell mismatch theme discussed here) have different panel shades but they match across left and right foot.
Yes, the shoes should look the same, even if there's variation. you should be able to tell the left and right are part of the same pair
 

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