Discussion in 'Social Life, Food & Drink, Travel' started by jerrysfriend, Mar 8, 2005.
i think he should get slapped anyway. doesn't matter if he's in a restaurant or not.
So this week, this is snobbishness? What was it last week? But not to stray off topic: the very essence of etiquette is how one acts; and our actions are (or should be) judged on both how we act and react in various situations. Obviously a polite gentleperson would not wear a cap while dining, but neither would a gentleperson draw attention to themselves by reacting to such behavior in a boorish manner. The proper reaction would've been, IMHO, to quietly but succinctly mention the impropriety of his actions to the cap-wearer, perhaps in a discrete aside while exiting the dining room. I too, would be disappointed to find a cap-wearing knuckle-dragger seated next to me at a fine dining establishment, but unless he was also engaged in something completely disruptive, I'd not add to the discomfort of the situation by creating a scene. Chances are the fellow who finds nothing wrong with wearing said cap during dinner would neither discern the social faux pax at his fist rearranging the facial structure of the complainant. Â
(PHV @ Mar. 08 2005,23:23) This is snobbery. It does not detract from your dining experience. If you have good company and the food is good, a slight visual smudge on the facade will do nothing. Loud talkers are different, but getting your boxers in a knot over a baseball cap reaks of something Dr. Frasier Crane would do...
I completely disagree with this. Â Â There are many people who would consider the wearing of a hat at a table as offensive as loud smacking of food, or loudly interrupting a speaker, and so on (if not more so). Â It is highly improper behaviour, period. Â Simply because the hat wearer is ignorant of the most obvious and basic table manners does not mean that those who suffer are somehow snobbish. Â Quite the opposite, actually. Â There is a reason we have etiquette. Â By observing it, we respect the rights of others, and treat them with dignity. Â By ignoring it, we are telling those around us that their rights are less important to us than our own. Â Etiquette is the glue of social order. Â Without it, we fall into the lazy habits of barbarism. Â Would you prefer that we all ate from troughs like pigs, pushing and shoving each other for that last bit of slop? Â Or that during a conversation, people just all shouted at each other simultaneously? Â Only in America would etiquette be frowned upon, where the ignorant somehow think they have been born with a right to trample on everyone around them in the name of personal liberty. Â They feel they were born with a right to everything they want, and anyone or anything that might ask them to humbly respect, help, or observe the rights of others is somehow an offense against their own selfish rights. Â I consider this as snobbishness of the worst sort. IMO, any person wearing a hat at the table deserves a quick slap to the face, as my own parents would have done when I was a child. Â I applaud ViroBono for his actions with the umbrella, and it shows me that the British still take some pride in their personal discipline. Â I only wish that people in America would be so observant of others at times. Â I would love to slap some hat-wearing or food-smacking idiot, but that type of behaviour would get you sued here in the US.
I definately see where you are comming from. I come from one of the most staunch Brit colonial type backgrounds one can imagine, and as a young boy was often lauded for my table manners when we moved to Canada. That having being said, when I look back at many of the formalities of "polite society", I can see that a lot of it doesn't really mean anything. Of course within that sphere of society, it is everything, but in actual fact it does not actually mean disrespect. I don't like people who force their upbringing on me, so I would certainly never reciprocate. Seriously, a hat in a restaurant should not bother you. If you do, than either your company is poor, your brain is empty, or the food sucks. Sorry, but you're going to have to get over it.
Actually a hat (or cap) should not be worn inside. It is a general rule, not something specific to restaurants.
Americans mostly don't know about this and tend to consider that their base-ball cap is part of their head, somehow. Do they ever take it off?
As I was a student in France a professor asked a guy to take off his hat in the classroom. Imagine trying this in the US. I agree with Linux when he says that Americans tend to overestimate their rights ("right" is often used as a synonym of "whim". Of course it is more convenient when an American rather than me writes this.
I think most people are aware that hats shouldn't be worn indoors, however, unless it is in one's home or they are the owner of the restaurant, it isn't their place to say anything to the person.
99% of the homes in north america I know of would not appreciate a cap indoors.
I disagree with that. I can't think of anyone that cares.
Suggestions for proper human behavior:
Your friend at your table is wearing a baseball cap in a fine restaurant - say, "Hey, you forgot to take your cap off."
Your child is wearing a baseball cap in a fine restaurant - say, "Take off your hat son, it's not the place to be wearing it."
Your co-worker is wearing a baseball cap in a fine restaurant, sitting at your table - say something funny, like "so you just get from the seniors softball game?"
Anything else - Don't do anything.
No restaurant or club should ever have a dress code, and I'll be damned if some yuppie kid in a waistcoat with a goatee walks up to me and slaps me for wearing a baseball cap in a fine restaurant, he's going to have quite a situation on his hands. Getting offended by someone wearing a baseball cap in a fine restaurant is SERIOUSLY treading "boy prince" territory, and if you are (going to go LA Guy-core for a moment), may I recommend some of those extra-strength laxatives?
I agree with most of your comments, but I think restaurants who chose to have a dress code do so to maintain a certain ambiance, which I have no problem with. However, if it isn't stated, then you have no cause for complaint in this situation. If it IS stated, but not enforced, then you have cause to bring it up with the management.
(PHV @ Mar. 09 2005,22:49) 99% of the homes in north america I know of would not appreciate a cap indoors.
I disagree with that. Â I can't think of anyone that cares.
Most kids I know don't have hats on inside, at least not in private places like homes.
I think you should have said something to the manager. I like it when dress codes are very explicit. That helps the resturaunt and the patrons.
I comitted a fashion faux pas such as that at a resturaunt once. I was with my fiance at the time (now wife) and we wanted to check out rehersal dinner places. We wanted someplace really casual since the next day was going to be so dressy. Her parents had suggested a nice Italian place and told us that it was very casual. So in we come wearing jeans, sweatshirts and I have a Budweiser cap on.
Well...it wasn't casual. We had made the hour drive to sample the food so we weren't going to turn back. I ended up going to the men's room to fix my hair which had been sitting under the cap for about 12 hours. I was extremely embarassed. Fortunately the place wasn't very busy and they sat us in the far corner of the place...which was fine with me since I felt like a real piece of something.
We ended up going there for our rehersal dinner. I just made sure to inform everyone what the dress code REALLY was.
From Emily Post: See http://www.emilypost.com/ask_us/question_archive.htm For the week of February 9, 2004 Q. I know back in the day, it was bad manners for a man to wear a hat (baseball cap) to the table. My grown sons wear them all the time and my husband is forever getting upset if they wear their hats to the table. If we have a formal dinner, such as holidays, they always remove them. Is it now acceptable for them to wear their hats to the table for casual meals? A. No, it is not. Basically, hats are removed when going indoors as a measure of respect. Therefore, caps and hats should be removed when entering a home (which includes while eating at the table), when entering a place of religion, or when going to a restaurant. When entering a store or other "public area" like a train station, the hat or cap may remain on. This applies to baseball caps worn by men or women. Hats and caps are always removed for the Pledge of Allegiance or the National Anthem. Women's hats that are part of their ensembles and therefore fashion accessories may be worn indoors, including at a restaurant table, etc. If they are large-brimmed, they should be removed in a theater or other place where they block the vision of the person behind. Aside from garden parties and formal teas where hats are often left on, women generally remove their hats when dinning in someone's home. The guidelines for wearing of hats by men and women are still an important part of our manners today. Hat traditions and manners may have originated in medieval times when knights lifted their face guard to show who they were, or in the days of the cowboys when a hat was lifted and removed to show there was no weapon hidden underneath. It became a sign of respect to others that has always remained.
And that is supposed to automatically put a stop to debate? No one here is denying that it is unseemly to wear a cap indoors, especially at a nice restaraunt. What I think is unseemly are the ones who get in a huge huff over it and allow it to ruin their evening. Slapping someone in the face? Well, if someone is boerish enough to wear a cap in a decent restaurant, than they are probably bararic enough to be able to kick your ass. So I'd recommend the cavalier behaviour to be left to Mr. Soprano.
I think it's funny that this silly, unwarranted and apparently unmitigated rage created by the hat wearer manifests itself in something as foppish and girly as an open handed slap.
I believe I may have started the slap issue.
My original comment was meant to be nothing more than a modest attempt at humor via sarcasm.
I respectfully wish to change my slap to a mean snarl or hip sneer at the offending hat wearer.
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