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can you tell a suit's qaulity by just looking?

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by ccvle, Dec 16, 2009.

  1. VikingsFan82

    VikingsFan82 Senior member

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    I could fill a book with suits of poor quality that have the "Super XXX Wool" slapped on the interior lining. Hell, before I came to this forum, I even bought one, for the very reason that you mentioned: I saw the "Super xxx Wool" tag and thought "Oh, what a great steal! And this suit is only $200, and I get a free alteration!"

    After the suit fell apart, developed a ridiculous sheen from dry cleaning, and stiffened up like cardboard, I learned my lesson, for good.

    Seriously, you're not going to win this argument. Your original three points of depicting "quality" in a suit are truly laughable.


    I find it hysterical that one of your sales threads lists "Super 150s" in the title to lure readers in, yet you dispute the claim that Zegna/Loro 120s and up is not a good first indicator of a good suit.
     
  2. furo

    furo Senior member

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    I find it hysterical that one of your sales threads lists "Super 150s" in the title to lure readers in, yet you dispute the claim that Zegna/Loro 120s and up is not a good first indicator of a good suit.

    That's because there's just a wee bit of difference when the word Oxxford comes to bear...and notice I don't use the "Super" word that you love so much.
     
  3. zalb916

    zalb916 Senior member

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    That's news to me. My cheap-as-hell, beater suits from H&M and Theory don't have pick-stitching. I guess I can see maker's like Jos A Bank trying to project a sense of quality by putting crappy pick-stitching on their suits.
    You've actually got it totally backwards. It's usually the more fashion-forward lines, like H&M, Zara, and Theory that do the faux pick stitching, while JAB stays away from it. You've got some poor information and evidently not a lot of experience with clothes. It's not a big deal. Don't worry about getting so defensive. Sit back and read some more of this forum. There are a lot of people on here with a substantial amount of knowledge from whom you can learn a lot.
    LEARN TO READ ZACHARY. "First indicator" does not equal a categorical statement that all Loro Piana suits are well-made in other ways.
    The whole point was that it's actually not a good first indicator.
     
  4. furo

    furo Senior member

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    The whole point was that it's actually not a good first indicator.

    +1

    If I see a LP fabric or Zegna Cloth tag on a suit, I immediately assume it is an inferior, low quality garment.
     
  5. mack11211

    mack11211 Senior member

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    Short answer: sometimes, but not always.

    I have looked at thousands of coats outside of their original retail environments. Sometimes I can tell the quality by sight, sometimes not. To confirm, I feel the lapel and shoulder. This gives the hand of the fabric and suggests the quality of construction.

    Most of the sartorial details that used to be the province of higher end suits, like colorful linings, pick stitching or working cuff buttons, can now be done inexpensively by machine and/or cheap labor.

    But the whole question points in the wrong direction. Fit is more important than suit quality when you want to look good. An adequately tailored suit, say from Express, can look like a million bucks if it fits well, while a too-large Kiton will just look like a cashmere sack.
     
  6. B|aze

    B|aze Senior member

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    You confuse me

    First you said...
    -Many times, the inner label on the lining will say something like "Super 100's wool." Super 100 and above is very good

    Then you said...
    As a corollary to my Super 120s statement, I might also add that Super 120s wool from a maker like Zegna or Loro Piana is going to much better-quality than a no-name brand like the one in JPHardy's post.

    ohh but then it was...
    I've merely said that Loro Piana or Zegna 100% wool in Super 100s or above is an indicator of a non-cheap suit.

    ...ahh ok...perhaps not indicator, more like FIRST indicator
    The Loro Piana mark would be a good FIRST INDICATOR that's its not a cheaply-made suit.

    ...oh I mean....half-way descent indicator...
    ...and quality not meaning well made
    LEARN TO READ ZACHARY.

    "First indicator" does not equal a categorical statement that all Loro Piana suits are well-made in other ways.


    ....
     
  7. VikingsFan82

    VikingsFan82 Senior member

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    The whole point was that it's actually not a good first indicator.

    The whole point of my arguing with you is that YOU KEEP ON ATTACKING ME WITHOUT PROVIDING SUPPORT.

    Let's say you see a Loro Piana or Zegna Super 100s label on the jacket lining of a friend. You also see non-shoddy pick stitching on the lapels On first glance, this would indicate the it's a halfway decent suit. Not cheap. Of course, you'd have to do the pinch test to find the canvas.


    On, the other hand, a different friend has a rather-shiny looking suit without pick stitching and without a Super 100s label from a reputable cloth maker like Zegna or Loro.

    YOU WOULD CONCLUDE ON FIRST GLANCE THAT THIS IS A CHEAP AS HELL SUIT.
     
  8. VikingsFan82

    VikingsFan82 Senior member

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    You confuse me First you said... Then you said... ohh but then it was... ...ahh ok...perhaps not indicator, more like FIRST indicator ...oh I mean....half-way descent indicator... ...and quality not meaning well made ....
    The underlying meaning of two statements does not change when you use synonyms or qualifiers that are similar. Learn some English, my Danish friend.
     
  9. furo

    furo Senior member

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    The whole point of my arguing with you is that YOU KEEP ON ATTACKING ME WITHOUT PROVIDING SUPPORT.

    Let's say you see a Loro Piana or Zegna Super 100s label on the jacket lining of a friend. You also see non-shoddy pick stitching on the lapels On first glance, this would indicate the it's a halfway decent suit. Not cheap. Of course, you'd have to do the pinch test to find the canvas.


    On, the other hand, a different friend has a rather-shiny looking suit without pick stitching and without a Super 100s label from a reputable cloth maker like Zegna or Loro.

    YOU WOULD CONCLUDE ON FIRST GLANCE THAT THIS IS A CHEAP AS HELL SUIT.


    I'm not sure I've seen this big of a hole dug within a single hour on this forum.
     
  10. B|aze

    B|aze Senior member

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    The underlying meaning of two statements does not change when you use synonyms or qualifiers that are similar. Learn some English, my Danish friend.

    Ok thank I will...just to clarify though (now that I have a change to talk to a real english professor)
    Very good, good and half way descent is the same then?
     
  11. zalb916

    zalb916 Senior member

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    The whole point of my arguing with you is that YOU KEEP ON ATTACKING ME WITHOUT PROVIDING SUPPORT.

    Let's say you see a Loro Piana or Zegna Super 100s label on the jacket lining of a friend. You also see non-shoddy pick stitching on the lapels On first glance, this would indicate the it's a halfway decent suit. Not cheap. Of course, you'd have to do the pinch test to find the canvas.


    On, the other hand, a different friend has a rather-shiny looking suit without pick stitching and without a Super 100s label from a reputable cloth maker like Zegna or Loro.

    YOU WOULD CONCLUDE ON FIRST GLANCE THAT THIS IS A CHEAP AS HELL SUIT.


    This is silly. I'm not attacking you. I'm pointing out some errors in your statements, and you've gotten very defensive. I also did provide support, when I went through your three points and provided exact reasons why each was flawed.

    Newer posters often come on here without as much knowledge as others. Nobody's attacking you for it. We're explaining why you have some misplaced notions. As I said, don't get so defensive. Sit back and read a bit. You will learn a lot.
     
  12. zalb916

    zalb916 Senior member

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    You've also completely changed your argument. First, it was pick stitching. Now, it's non-shoddy pick stitching, which was MY point. Big difference. Second, it was Super 100s. Now, it's Super 100s from a specific reputable cloth maker, which still isn't necessarily that indicative. Non-shoddy craftsmanship and a reputable cloth maker are entirely different things than you originally said. Not to mention, one would have to know how to look for non-shoddy work and one would have to know who are reputable cloth makers. This knowledge is entirely different than just anyone observing something on a suit for indications of quality.
     
  13. VikingsFan82

    VikingsFan82 Senior member

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    This is silly. I'm not attacking you. I'm pointing out some errors in your statements, and you've gotten very defensive. I also did provide support, when I went through your three points and provided exact reasons why each was flawed.

    Newer posters often come on here without as much knowledge as others. Nobody's attacking you for it. We're explaining why you have some misplaced notions. As I said, don't get so defensive. Sit back and read a bit. You will learn a lot.


    You called my post laughable.

    You then proceeded to turn my 3 limited statements into categorical ones.

    You are intellectually dishonest.

    That's why I keep posting in this thread.
     
  14. VikingsFan82

    VikingsFan82 Senior member

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    You've also completely changed your argument. First, it was pick stitching. Now, it's non-shoddy pick stitching, which was MY point.
    I only clarified it when you brought up the shoddy Jos. A Bank thing, which was news to me. I think well-done, pick-stitching was probably a good indicator until a couple years ago, if what you say is true. Jos A Banks then capitalized on the mentions of pick-stitching, and put cheap, shoddy stitching into its garments to lure people in I was unaware that Banks did this. I try to stay away from that crappy store.
    I conceded that I changed my argument slightly. I said I was adding the Zegna/Loro thing as a corollary to my original statement. It's a little early, and I didn't choose my words carefully enough.
    We're not talking about the average person. We're talking about if it's POSSIBLE to find indicators that a suit is or is not cheap. And with that, I exit the thread. I don't like arguing with intellectually dishonest people. You keep straw-manning my statements.
     
  15. furo

    furo Senior member

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    You called my post laughable.

    You then proceeded to turn my 3 limited statements into categorical ones.

    You are intellectually dishonest.

    That's why I keep posting in this thread.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  16. WhateverYouLike

    WhateverYouLike Senior member

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    Awesome thread. Keep it going, Viks.
     
  17. zalb916

    zalb916 Senior member

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    You called my post laughable. You then proceeded to turn my 3 limited statements into categorical ones. You are intellectually dishonest. That's why I keep posting in this thread.
    I made one negative comment in my first post. For that, I apologize. However, you declared that I "KEEP ON ATTACKING [YOU] WITHOUT PROVIDING SUPPORT." That's categorically not true. I've disputed your incorrect claims. That's not attacking. Nobody has turned any of your limited statements into categorical ones. We've pointed out that your statements, be they limited or not, were not particular helpful to those looking for a useful answer to the OP's question. You got incredibly defensive. It's no big deal. You gave some bad advice, be it limited or not. I've done it. Some of the most knowledgeable people on the forum have done it. David Halberstam wrote a rather lengthy book on how our nation's best and brightest did it for a decade. It's no big deal. Well, in the case of those in David Halberstam's book it was.
     
  18. furo

    furo Senior member

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    I don't like arguing with intellectually dishonest people. You keep straw-manning my statements.



    [​IMG]
     
  19. onion

    onion Senior member

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    VikingsFan82: Seriously Zbromer has been nothing but polite to you. You are by far the rudest person in this thread. You need to calm down.
     
  20. zalb916

    zalb916 Senior member

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    VikingsFan82: Seriously Zbromer has been nothing but polite to you. You are by far the rudest person in this thread. You need to calm down.

    Not entirely true. I did call his first post laughable. Although, that was largely in part because he said here are two good indicators and proceeded to list three. That was laughable.
     

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